Wildcat on the block: Wildcat Sold to Peaks Resorts

[EPB]

I just don't see Loaf and River working against each other, I think they both have something special going for them and work well in conjunction. Just my opinion, but I just don't see that for an Attitash/Wildcat card.

To the consumer, I'd definitely agree. The problem with the two being under common ownership is that Sunday River is a cash cow and Sugarloaf is not. From what I can gather, ASC and Boyne have been worried that capital improvements at Sugarloaf might increase skier visits by detracting from Sunday River's customer base. Before Saddleback emerged as somewhat of a player in Western Maine, this was certainly true. For instance, if Sugarloaf had received some much needed lift upgrades, Sunday River goers might be more inclined to drive the extra hour to Sugarloaf. Certainly, some Boston-area skiers would ski Sugarloaf over Vermont if they made the right improvements, but Sugarloaf has been at a disadvantage because SR dominates the Western Maine market. When I think about it from management's perspective, I can't justify them spending more than 10-15% of their marketing efforts on Sugarloaf assuming resources are scarce.

Boyne has gotten creative with the Brackett Basin expansion trying to tap into a market that Sunday River hasn't already covered. Lift upgrades and things of that nature aren't likely to receive as good an ROI because they'd detract from SR's business. The same could hold true between Wildcat and Attitash. There's no doubt that Wildcat is the better ski area, but the way things currently stand, people are making the choice (in masses) to ski Attitash or Cranmore when they're literally right down the street. If Peak were to run ROI projections at Wildcat, they would likely find that, like Sunday River, making improvements to the "skiers'" resort would likely detract from their (currently) stronger business.

.... I don't really think it's gonna happen, but its an interesting discussion if nothing else.

 

[thetrailboss]

To the consumer, I'd definitely agree. The problem with the two being under common ownership is that Sunday River is a cash cow and Sugarloaf is not. From what I can gather, ASC and Boyne have been worried that capital improvements at Sugarloaf might increase skier visits by detracting from Sunday River's customer base. Before Saddleback emerged as somewhat of a player in Western Maine, this was certainly true. For instance, if Sugarloaf had received some much needed lift upgrades, Sunday River goers might be more inclined to drive the extra hour to Sugarloaf. Certainly, some Boston-area skiers would ski Sugarloaf over Vermont if they made the right improvements, but Sugarloaf has been at a disadvantage because SR dominates the Western Maine market. When I think about it from management's perspective, I can't justify them spending more than 10-15% of their marketing efforts on Sugarloaf assuming resources are scarce.

Boyne has gotten creative with the Brackett Basin expansion trying to tap into a market that Sunday River hasn't already covered. Lift upgrades and things of that nature aren't likely to receive as good an ROI because they'd detract from SR's business. The same could hold true between Wildcat and Attitash. There's no doubt that Wildcat is the better ski area, but the way things currently stand, people are making the choice (in masses) to ski Attitash or Cranmore when they're literally right down the street. If Peak were to run ROI projections at Wildcat, they would likely find that, like Sunday River, making improvements to the "skiers'" resort would likely detract from their (currently) stronger business.

.... I don't really think it's gonna happen, but its an interesting discussion if nothing else.

I agree and I disagree. I think that Boyne has a good spread of the market and is marketing Sugarloaf as the go-to place for folks that want more of a big mountain experience rather than skiing cruisers. I also think that Sugarloaf had been pretty neglected and Boyne has done a lot with it in the last few years cleaning things up and really improving its brand. I have only heard PR about Sugarloaf this year...lots of good vibes. Sunday River did get the Chondola, but I think that Sugarloaf is being pushed as the product to go to for more hardcore skiers and riders.

My wife grew up at Sugarloaf and her family is 90 minutes away, so I have more of a reason to go, but to be honest, I would not hesitate to drive up there again for a visit or two this season based on my experience there this year. I made two trips there and the place is really buzzing. Even though I had to hike for turns on my last visit, I got to appreciate the mountain on a different level and could see just how immense it really is. I got a really good sense as to the amount of work that had been done on snowmaking infrastructure and other capital investments. That is a lot of ground to cover up there.

 

[EPB]

I agree and I disagree. I think that Boyne has a good spread of the market and is marketing Sugarloaf as the go-to place for folks that want more of a big mountain experience rather than skiing cruisers. I also think that Sugarloaf had been pretty neglected and Boyne has done a lot with it in the last few years cleaning things up and really improving its brand. I have only heard PR about Sugarloaf this year...lots of good vibes. Sunday River did get the Chondola, but I think that Sugarloaf is being pushed as the product to go to for more hardcore skiers and riders.

My wife grew up at Sugarloaf and her family is 90 minutes away, so I have more of a reason to go, but to be honest, I would not hesitate to drive up there again for a visit or two this season based on my experience there this year. I made two trips there and the place is really buzzing. Even though I had to hike for turns on my last visit, I got to appreciate the mountain on a different level and could see just how immense it really is. I got a really good sense as to the amount of work that had been done on snowmaking infrastructure and other capital investments. That is a lot of ground to cover up there.

I definitely agree. The snow making improvements have been much needed. They're really highlighting what's special about the place too, which is truly refreshing. Sugarloaf has its own marketing identity to match its different skiing "vibe". I think its a great idea. Hopefully they continue push its strengths going forward.... I really think Saddleback gave Boyne the kick in the butt it needed to really start putting time and effort into revitalizing the loaf. I might have that wrong though.

Selling Sugarloaf to the hardcore skier is a great idea for solving the ROI problem too. If they spend money to attract as non-SR skier base, the moves are likely to generate a better return. As things stand now Boyne>>>>ASC for Sugarloaf.

The real question for me is, whether this is an experiment to see what they can get out of Sugarloaf, or if it is a sign of things to come. I hope it is the latter, but time will surely tell.

 

[thetrailboss]

I really think Saddleback gave Boyne the kick in the butt it needed to really start putting time and effort into revitalizing the loaf. I might have that wrong though.

This.

Saddleback is now a big player and is going for the same market now as Sugarloaf. Add to the fact that Saddleback is now managed by former Sugarloaf people.

And I see what you are saying about Sugarloaf "robbing" Sunday River of skiers and riders. This was what would happen if they pushed Sugarloaf as another typical resort with groomers. This was in essence what ASC was doing. But it seems that Boyne is rounding out their portfolio by saying that Loon is their "groomer" mountain, Sunday River is the in-between product, and Sugarloaf is their version of Jay Peak with natural snow runs, glades, etc.

 

[Skimaine]

Saddleback is now a big player and is going for the same market now as Sugarloaf. Add to the fact that Saddleback is now managed by former Sugarloaf people.
.

Not so much any more. Cook is gone along with a number of lieutenants. Leaner look to the management team at SB. Competition has been good for both.

 

[dl]

I don't know the Peak guys well but what little I've heard is that they (in the past) have tended towards resort development vs. real estate development. In other words, they would look at Attitash and figure out how to turn this into a full, four season resort. The mountain coaster that's being built would back that up as it would supplement the summer offerings they currently have but it will also be a draw for the non-ski crowd during the winter. I know some owners at the Grand Summit and they said that in the early days of Peak ownership, Peak was looking to sell the hotel as that was not their business. Ultimately they decided to hold on to it but I think that shows how they were thinking in the past and might in the future. It's a different model from what we always think of but it's a model that appears to be working for them.

Now think of Wildcat in those terms. Forget the real estate development and figure out how Peak might turn this resort into a bigger draw than it currently is. That's how they might be thinking (if they really are looking at buying it). Getting a corner on the MWV market might be a way for them to increase their overall skier/resort visits. A kind of 1+1=3.

Of course they could close it.....and drive more traffic to Attitash but we don't want to think about that.

 

[thetrailboss]

Not so much any more. Cook is gone along with a number of lieutenants. Leaner look to the management team at SB. Competition has been good for both.

Thanks for the correction. Where has Cook gone to?

 

[deadheadskier]

Forget the real estate development and figure out how Peak might turn this resort into a bigger draw than it currently is. That's how they might be thinking (if they really are looking at buying it). Getting a corner on the MWV market might be a way for them to increase their overall skier/resort visits. A kind of 1+1=3.

cross marketing with another mountain could help.........if they maintain the affordability of the place. I think Wildcat's value is a big draw in addition to the skiing. The cheap Sunday afternoons, second day add ons, mid week deals. They also usually have the deepest discounts on liftopia.

As for the mountain itself, I really don't see how it could be improved if they aren't allowed to expand terrain. The lifts are perfectly fine. I did read somewhere that if they wanted to they could put in another summit lift. I think it would be great if they put in a fixed grip chair up Lift Lion. You could use it for both windy days when the Quad gets shut down and for early / late season turns.

 

[xwhaler]

http://www.sunjournal.com/franklin/story/861266

Cook is also involved in Maine Network Partners, an organization that supports the development of collaborative nonprofit networks in Maine.

 

[threecy]

I did read somewhere that if they wanted to they could put in another summit lift. I think it would be great if they put in a fixed grip chair up Lift Lion. You could use it for both windy days when the Quad gets shut down and for early / late season turns.

They've actually been decreasing the lift count over the years. There used to be two lifts that reached the summit (a triple and a gondola). In addition, there was a double between the gondola and the CTEC triple. The triple and gondola were removed on either side of the HSQ installation, whilst the double was taken removed shortly thereafter.

 

[EPB]

They've actually been decreasing the lift count over the years. There used to be two lifts that reached the summit (a triple and a gondola). In addition, there was a double between the gondola and the CTEC triple. The triple and gondola were removed on either side of the HSQ installation, whilst the double was taken removed shortly thereafter.

Are you familiar with the high speed quad mid station at Tremblant? It's for summer use only. It was also installed about 10 years after the quad was originally built. I was wondering if Wildcat could do something similar with their quad. A mid loading point where the old triple used to begin (2/3 of the way up) could offer awesome spring skiing and would only require opening one lift.

 

[deadheadskier]

They've actually been decreasing the lift count over the years. There used to be two lifts that reached the summit (a triple and a gondola). In addition, there was a double between the gondola and the CTEC triple. The triple and gondola were removed on either side of the HSQ installation, whilst the double was taken removed shortly thereafter.

I am aware. I'm fairly certain they can put in a upper mountain lift without going through too many major USFS permitting stages as their originally was an Upper Mountain lift.

Are you familiar with the high speed quad mid station at Tremblant? It's for summer use only. It was also installed about 10 years after the quad was originally built. I was wondering if Wildcat could do something similar with their quad. A mid loading point where the old triple used to begin (2/3 of the way up) could offer awesome spring skiing and would only require opening one lift.

This would be a great alternative too. My suggestion of a fixed grip is simply to also have a bit more insurance of summit access on windy days. It would fantastic for spring skiing. It's interesting, for all 'resorts' that shut it down long before they run out of snow, a mom and pop ski area like Wildcat with far fewer peak season revenue streams manages almost always to be one of the last mountains to close each year.

 

[threecy]

I am aware. I'm fairly certain they can put in a upper mountain lift without going through too many major USFS permitting stages as their originally was an Upper Mountain lift.

Not sure it'd be that easy...they'd probably need a FGQ to justify putting in a lift for days the HSQ cannot run...capacity of FGQ+HSQ > FGT+old gondola. I'm not familiar with Wildcat's permit, but Smuggs, for instance, traded the rights to two double chairs in exchange for one detachable (yet to be installed).

Also, if it's too windy for the HSQ in winter, the upper mountain area can be pretty brutal. It's probably not a bad idea to keep folks off the top 500 or so vertical feet in those extreme situations.

 

[Breeze]

Word has spread in the MWV/Pinkham Notch that it is a done deal with Peak, and it's been shared with the current employee base at Wildcat. The 'Cat is outta the bag.


Beyond that there is a lot of rumor, gossip and speculation, so I won't play Post Office except to say most locals think it will be a win-win situation, even if it takes some time to come to full fruition.

With all due respect to the family ownership and long term management of Wildcat: while the property investment may not have been obvious, or even deemed lacking..... care was taken to file, apply, and maintain USFS permitting for most of what the market base calls for. Give some props to that aspect, it was done even though there was no intent to build it to outer limits.


I think this could be just as exciting as the resurgence of of Saddleback. It seems like a response to the current real estate market correction.

Attitash and Wildcat do share a BIG MWV market base of part time locals, second home owners, condo owners, and time share owners, all of whom are trying to squeeze out some room-rental income while getting the best deals on snow. This is the tertiary ( can't flip-it, locked in) market, and now becomes an important working relationship in the community for maintaining guest traffic, skiership, ridership and most of all......... GUEST SATISFACTION and REPEAT BUSINESS.

Yea Wildcat needs some love and attention, but it is still and will always be a kick ass on-hill experience.

I'm thinking good thoughts.

Breeze

 

[deadheadskier]

Not sure it'd be that easy...they'd probably need a FGQ to justify putting in a lift for days the HSQ cannot run...capacity of FGQ+HSQ > FGT+old gondola. I'm not familiar with Wildcat's permit, but Smuggs, for instance, traded the rights to two double chairs in exchange for one detachable (yet to be installed).

I forget where I read it, probably here, but it was with a mountain employee and it was pretty specific that they could put an upper mountain lift if they wanted to due to the previous lift being there. A fixed grip quad is probably best for being able to deal with wind higher than the 50 mph the current HSQ tolerates. That or a lift quite low to the ground. My primary interest (read: dream) is the late season potential. That mountain holds snow very well. You could blow deep on Upper Catapult and stay open to Memorial Day quite easy. Given the traffic across the street for Tucks, there are a fair amount of skiers in the arear through May.

Spare me the reality check / that's not how ski areas operate.

Read: dream

Yea Wildcat needs some love and attention, but it is still and will always be a kick ass on-hill experience.

I'm thinking good thoughts.

Breeze

What do you think it needs? More snowmaking capacity I get, but that could be said for pretty much anywhere. The Bobcat triple is pretty pokey. Short of terrain expansion that they can't do, I think Wildcat is perhaps the one area in New England that I really think is pretty much fine the way it is. Kick ass lift, kick ass trails, lodge is plenty adequate. I guess renovating and reopening the old summit gondi building would be pretty cool.

If what you say about Peaks taking over is true, their pass will get serious consideration from me next season. I've contemplated a Wildcat Pass for the past couple of seasons. Having Attitash as a back up when conditions at the Cat are brutal might sway me.

 

[riverc0il]

What do you think it needs? More snowmaking capacity I get, but that could be said for pretty much anywhere. The Bobcat triple is pretty pokey. Short of terrain expansion that they can't do, I think Wildcat is perhaps the one area in New England that I really think is pretty much fine the way it is.

Hey now, don't forget about MRG.

Seriously though, My biggest grip with Wildcat are the lack of options off the summit which leads to deteriorating conditions off the summit. Teh suck about skiing at Wildcat in hard pack conditions is all the summit trails are pretty icy well before noon. Wildcat has a decent amount of terrain, but if the liftlines are not open, then all skiers are funneled down either Wildcat, Catapult, or Lynx (or Polecat if you want). That is not enough trails for a high speed lift that often runs as the only lift any one uses.

I doubt there is anything that could be done about this given their existing foot print. They already have TB to the north which is fine the way it is and I don't know if any terrain is expandable to the south even with permits.

Ideally, they would replace the Tomcat Triple with another high speeder to better service the bottom 2/3 of the mountain and relocate the Tom Cat Triple to the old Gondi line to service upper mountain terrain for earlier opening and later closing. Ain't gonna happen, but I can dream. My favorite on map terrain at Wildcat, liftlines aside, is all the terrain north of the Quad serviced by the Tomcat.

If Peaks is the buyer, the only change I would really hope for his more honest and straight forward trail reporting. They mark trails as open even if only 10% of the trail is open as a connector. One thing I hope Peaks would not do is bury the place in man made and groom it flat. Cat does a good job of leaving a lot of natural. Which does not seem to be Peaks forte.

 

[deadheadskier]

There's real estate to put in trails between Lynx / Polecat, Upper Wildcat / Catapult, Feeline / Tomcat Schuss; that could take some of the pressure off the main trails and preserve conditions later into the day. There's also some tree skiing stashes in those areas that would be compromised by such development.

Wildcat's greatest asset is the Summit Quad. You can rack up Vert at that mountain as good as anywhere. It also creates the conditions problems you note. Just get yourself the 5 Stars you seek and enjoy it for what it is.

 

[riverc0il]

Wildcat's greatest asset is the Summit Quad. You can rack up Vert at that mountain as good as anywhere. It also creates the conditions problems you note. Just get yourself the 5 Stars you seek and enjoy it for what it is.

6s actually and those are more for early season. I don't know if I will be able to stomach packing them up to rip cruisers at the Cat in mid-winter. :???: I don't enjoy things for what they are but rather I enjoy things when they are enjoyable to me personally.

I agree that the Cat's greatest asset (not counting the view, man made only here) is the HSQ. No where else can you rack up that much vert that quickly. But the conditions degradation is the price that was paid for that asset. I used to love the Cat when I was a groomer charging racer. Now I rarely get over there. What most people love the mountain for (the HSQ), I hate it for because of what that type of traffic does to the trails. Pods rule for that reason.

 

[Edd]

Word has spread in the MWV/Pinkham Notch that it is a done deal with Peak, and it's been shared with the current employee base at Wildcat. The 'Cat is outta the bag.


Beyond that there is a lot of rumor, gossip and speculation, so I won't play Post Office except to say most locals think it will be a win-win situation, even if it takes some time to come to full fruition.

I think this could be just as exciting as the resurgence of of Saddleback. It seems like a response to the current real estate market correction.

I hope the locals are right. The idea of Wildcat getting a cash injection is huge news. Higher ticket prices are probably unavoidable. I hope Peak grabs their reputation as a late season ski area with both hands and makes the most of it. I also like Wildcat the way it is but I'm hoping for the best.

 

[deadheadskier]

6s actually and those are more for early season. I don't know if I will be able to stomach packing them up to rip cruisers at the Cat in mid-winter. :???: I don't enjoy things for what they are but rather I enjoy things when they are enjoyable to me personally.

I agree that the Cat's greatest asset (not counting the view, man made only here) is the HSQ. No where else can you rack up that much vert that quickly. But the conditions degradation is the price that was paid for that asset. I used to love the Cat when I was a groomer charging racer. Now I rarely get over there. What most people love the mountain for (the HSQ), I hate it for because of what that type of traffic does to the trails. Pods rule for that reason.

That lift's capacity even beats up the tree stashes, because they tend to be just a few lines wide tree stashes. Par for the course in soft wood forests. I almost think it would be better to just to put the tree stashes on the map and expand them condiderably. Overall it would decrease skier density on the terrain. Doubt the USFS would go for it.