The Industry View on Spring Skiing

dlague said:

Personally, I reach a form of depression around this time of year which sucks. Ski areas are closing and the end of season clock keeps ticking. Every time my family opts to do something other than skiing - I am a debbie downer. If it were not for me, my family probably would be moving on. However, for those who have reached finality, it is not even a second thought - they are done and I would bet it is a majority of the skiing/snowboarding population and while marketing might get a few extra visits but I do not think there would be a huge up tick.

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mental health day?

The other difference is for the 10 day a year type skier the legs just are not in shape to handle the spring corn as well as the diehard who has been skiing all winter. So a day on corn can be too much work for some.

Experienced the good, the bad and the ugly of spring skiing this weekend at Stratton.

What a difference a week makes with a little rain damage. Sometimes even just in a day. My friends that went up last week reported mid winter conditions. This weekend, we got rain overnight Friday and a light coating of snow to go with spring conditions on Saturday. Only annoying part other than lifts being closed(forcing a little bit of uphill traversing at times) was that the trails were a bit of a mess since the damage seemed to happen after overnight grooming. So we got dust on crust and windblown boiler plate. Pretty hazardous mix of slush, ice and death cookies too. Of course my own fault in this matter is that it was the first time on skis for me in about a month so I wasn't in good condition to deal with it. If I'd been going more consistently, I might not have noticed.

My point as it relates to this thread is that the unfortunate thing is that this time of the season, the weather and conditions get even more unpredictable. Resorts make a calculated decision to start scaling back operations. Takes a pretty dedicated and fit person(physically and mentally) to enjoy it.

Sunday was better at first. Overnight refreeze, a little more snow on top and blue skies and warm Temps to start. Sunrise super trail was great. But clouds came in, Temps dropped and wind picked up so more icy, death cookie conditions. Temps were back mid winter at least higher up which was good. Another round of grooming could have helped the icy situation immensely. Most fun was the relatively uncrowded slopes and being able to ski right onto the lifts. They disassembled the lift corrals early or didn't set them up at all.

I wouldn't mind going again next week except.... Forecast has more rain on the way..... Such is spring skiing.....

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Saddleback has 5 foot deep snow and they are only open for 1 more weekend. They will be setting records for amount of snow on the ground for end of season.

Scruffy said:

You keep dragging that up, as if you personally have inside information on exactly why every ski area went out of business over the past 30 years or so, and you blame it on poor marketing. You couldn't sell steak and lobster to a finite group of people that have been gorging themselves on steak and lobster all week. At some point, people are full. Give it a rest.

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I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept. Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed. Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.

Quietman said:

I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept. Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed. Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.

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I'm pretty sure that pay your kids' age on Easter will = fail most anywhere...


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Even Loon on Sunday all lifts but the Gondola were ski on. It was 35 and sunny, so it wasn't the weather keeping people away.

Quietman said:

I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept. Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed. Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.

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"quietman" is right on. Marketing spring skiing isn't making an 11th hour decision to be open.

Spring skiing always included pond skimming and spring carnivals with a large dose of Gemütlichkeit. With consistently good snow through the month of March, the pond skimming and spring carnivals should be moved out a few weeks to a time where there really are bare patches and there is the feel that the season is near its end.

As for learning, spring snow is especially easy to teach beginners. This is because for beginners, the biggest enemy is speed. The slower snow allows the beginner to actually turn across the fall line without going "scary fast". I sure would rather be out on a warm March day than a freezing January day. For the areas that have after school programs, offering either extensions or late season programs (for those not into different sports) should be a source of positive cash flow.

There are those who say that extending the season into the spring would overlap other sports: In my lifetime, the baseball season was extended now including all of October; the football season has extended by a month to include all of January (and early Feb. too); the NHL and NBA go into June. Indoor tennis hasn't been shy about going head-to-head with the skiing season. They're all doing well horning in on the seasons that used to belong to other sports.

joshua segal said:

There are those who say that extending the season into the spring would overlap other sports: In my lifetime, the baseball season was extended now including all of October; the football season has extended by a month to include all of January (and early Feb. too); the NHL and NBA go into June. Indoor tennis hasn't been shy about going head-to-head with the skiing season. They're all doing well horning in on the seasons that used to belong to other sports.

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You are out of touch with reality regarding today's youth sports. During the 80s I basically had to quit youth baseball in the spring because I wanted to still be skiing. Same goes for soccer in the fall. I had numerous friends who skied, but the team sports always took priority for them.

Now participation requirements are ratcheted up even further.

You see this reality in this thread and choose to patently ignore it. Diehards skiing parents who make it out 40+ times a year saying, "My season is basically done. Kids spring sports have started."

No marketing campaign can change that.

deadheadskier said:

You are out of touch with reality regarding today's youth sports. During the 80s I basically had to quit youth baseball in the spring because I wanted to still be skiing. Same goes for soccer in the fall. I had numerous friends who skied, but the team sports always took priority for them.

Now participation requirements are ratcheted up even further.

You see this reality in this thread and choose to patently ignore it. Diehards skiing parents who make it out 40+ times a year saying, "My season is basically done. Kids spring sports have started."

No marketing campaign can change that.

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Yup!

The modern reality (a combo of many parents skewed views on their kids athletic abilities and coaches unrealistic views based on many parents unrealistic views) is that youth sports have gone away from the older model where diversity of sports played by kids across all seasons was encouraged and "specialization" in a particular sport by a kid essentially year round was rare.

Nowadays the norm, and in general I think this is a bad idea, is to have kids at an early age start specialization in one particular sport year round and not diversify. Sure, my kids ski a lot, but they also play soccer and golf and run. All of those sports could be a year round event for us, but we choose for them not to be.

That is tough to do in today's world, and its why non skiing sports DO have a large adverse effect on crowd numbers in the spring since many parents are almost afraid to have their kids miss a practice for fear of loss of potential playing time

Quietman said:

I'll use an example from my home area, Crotched. Just an example, not a lambasting of their marketing dept. Most weekends had sparse crowds, then the pay your age for kids day on an early March Sunday was packed. Instead of saying wow, we have something here, they waited until Easter Sunday to repeat the offer and nobody came(holiday/weather/late season). So next year they will probably say pay your own age day was a failure. My full time job is in marketing, so I have at least half a clue.

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Doesn't it tell you something that when they repeated the offer in April nobody came?

drjeff said:

The modern reality (a combo of many parents skewed views on their kids athletic abilities and coaches unrealistic views based on many parents unrealistic views) is that youth sports have gone away from the older model where diversity of sports played by kids across all seasons was encouraged and "specialization" in a particular sport by a kid essentially year round was rare.

Nowadays the norm, and in general I think this is a bad idea, is to have kids at an early age start specialization in one particular sport year round and not diversify.

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An example of this pressure to succeed in youth sports would be my boss and his son. I have not seen his son play QB. He put his son into a private school as they have a good track record of placing kids in college programs. Last fall during his junior season, his son got benched. So, what did Dad do? He researched what other schools in the state have good football programs and needed a QB. He rented a house in a town two hours away from home (his wife visits on the weekends :lol: ) to get his kid a starting QB roll. Apparently this public school has all sorts of coaching and training for star varsity players year round. The kid has been working with the wide receivers near daily after school since he got there.

My boss's rationale is A. He wants his kid to be happy; and B. If his 30K gamble results in a college scholarship, he ends up saving $70K+ in the long run in college costs. To each their own, but this is not uncommon and I certainly have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

Hopefully I luck out and my kid takes to winter and skiing like I did and loses interest in the others sports. :lol: Unlikely though. Team sport performance at the youth level becomes a huge part of a child's identity and popularity with their peers. Pretty sad fact.

talking to a friend yesterday who's son plays on HS baseball team. they have 3 games during spring break vacation and the team policy is if you miss a game or practice for an unexcused reason (non-medical) then you also sit for a game.

so they don't get to go on a family vacation otherwise the kid misses 6 of the 15 games on the schedule.

other friends have kids in football program and similar rules apply for August practice so they have to take their summer vaca in July or skip it.


i don't have a sports conflict in my house this year, more of a social one... would rather hang out with her friends than ski and it seems like fewer and fewer teens are skiing these days, at least in my town. we run a parks & rec friday night ski program, we used to get 3 bus fulls of kids 5 years ago, now we get 1.

gmcunni said:

i don't have a sports conflict in my house this year, more of a social one... would rather hang out with her friends than ski and it seems like fewer and fewer teens are skiing these days, at least in my town. we run a parks & rec friday night ski program, we used to get 3 bus fulls of kids 5 years ago, now we get 1.

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This is what happened to me growing up. None of my friends skied, so I stopped in HS and college. My brother had a bunch of friends who skied, and he continued with it.

Obviously I came back to the sport, but because of the 12 years that I took off, my brother is a much stronger skier than I am.

gmcunni said:

talking to a friend yesterday who's son plays on HS baseball team. they have 3 games during spring break vacation and the team policy is if you miss a game or practice for an unexcused reason (non-medical) then you also sit for a game.

so they don't get to go on a family vacation otherwise the kid misses 6 of the 15 games on the schedule.

other friends have kids in football program and similar rules apply for August practice so they have to take their summer vaca in July or skip it.

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This applies to basketball as well for Feb vaca.

gmcunni said:

talking to a friend yesterday who's son plays on HS baseball team. they have 3 games during spring break vacation and the team policy is if you miss a game or practice for an unexcused reason (non-medical) then you also sit for a game.

so they don't get to go on a family vacation otherwise the kid misses 6 of the 15 games on the schedule.

other friends have kids in football program and similar rules apply for August practice so they have to take their summer vaca in July or skip it.

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Also in NH this is not a team rule it is a rule put in place by the State association NHIAA.

deadheadskier said:

Hopefully I luck out and my kid takes to winter and skiing like I did and loses interest in the others sports. :lol: Unlikely though. Team sport performance at the youth level becomes a huge part of a child's identity and popularity with their peers. Pretty sad fact.

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While not totally uncommon, your boss's story is a little extreme.

Ideally, team sports consciously and unconsciously teach teamwork, interdependence, sharing and the idea of being a part of something larger than the self. In a small town, there is also some restructuring of the social hierarchy and shuffling of the deck that goes on. Good for kids to meet and make friends with kids the same age from neighboring towns.

And while we all want our kids to enjoy the things we enjoy, adolescence is a time for a kid to start trying to forge their own identity. Skiing will be there for them down the road if they want it. Organized team sports can be difficult to be a part of later in life.

deadheadskier said:

My boss's rationale is A. He wants his kid to be happy; and B. If his 30K gamble results in a college scholarship, he ends up saving $70K+ in the long run in college costs. To each their own, but this is not uncommon and I certainly have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

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Maybe it's because my kids were never that into sports, but I have a problem with the whole approach of getting your kids involved in sports so that they can get university sports scholarships. If the kids are talented and like doing the sport and the scholarship money is available, then sure, take it...but to take extra measures in sports? I'd rather see kids get better grades and then qualify for academic merit scholarships.

Also, how good of an education can you get at a college if you have to spend a ton of time playing a competitive sport?

For us, kid conflicts used to be more interest issues...either they didn't really take to skiing (you have to put up with the cold and also have to not get spooked by riding chairlifts) or there were other things they would rather be doing.

deadheadskier said:

You are out of touch with reality regarding today's youth sports.

...

No marketing campaign can change that.

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OK. So if I follow your logic, when the football season starts in Sept., everyone should shut down all the baseball fields because no one wants to play baseball any more.

You and your supporters keep saying, "No marketing campaign can change that (i.e. losing the conflict with other sports seasons)" and you may be right. But until someone makes a serious effort, I say, "nobody knows."

joshua segal said:

You and your supporters keep saying, "No marketing campaign can change that (i.e. losing the conflict with other sports seasons)" and you may be right. But until someone makes a serious effort, I say, "nobody knows."

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Multiple mountains do make a serious effort. At least 1 in each region where a reasonable effort can be made (Central VT, Northern VT, NH, ME). You're not listening to any of the points we're making.

Think about it this way, if it were no-doubt clear cut profitable to operate as late as possible, would Powdr have changed Killington's operating schedule? The fact that they tried to shorten their season proves that it's more complicated than any of us realize.