The "Sugarbush Thread"

[cdskier]

Ah, you're right! Was it originally spec'd as a replacement triple?

Also on their blog;
"we will be replacing the current Heaven’s Gate Triple with a new fixed-grip Heaven’s Gate Quad"

A Deeper Dive Into The Heaven’s Gate Lift Replacement - SugarBlog

After teasing this project dating back to last spring, we're excited to finally get underway with our big Heaven's Gate Replacement Project. As most of you already know, we will be replacing the current Heaven's Gate Triple with a new fixed-grip Heaven's Gate Quad to open for the 2024-25 winter...

blog.sugarbush.com

Not that I ever recall. I recall hearing for a number of years that the plan was to replace it with a quad. Do manufacturers even still offer triples as an option?

 

[Lotso]

OK, so I wasn't COMPLETELY brain dead...Thanks, Newp

So even with change to 4 per chair and higher rope speed, the spacing will be such that the number of people dumped at the top per hour is roughly the same as old HG?

 

[solar]

OK, so I wasn't COMPLETELY brain dead...Thanks, Newp

I need some of your caffeine!

 

[solar]

So even with change to 4 per chair and higher rope speed, the spacing will be such that the number of people dumped at the top per hour is roughly the same as old HG?

It looks like the current uphill capacity is 1,600/pph with an 8:50 transit time vs. a new capacity of 2,400/pph with 8:00 transit time.

Current: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l89922/
Planned: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l112057/

 

[Newpylong]

Not that I ever recall. I recall hearing for a number of years that the plan was to replace it with a quad. Do manufacturers even still offer triples as an option?

Absolutely. Sunday River installed 3 in the past decade including one last year. The delta price change going from a triple to a quad is not big but they're still used in cases where capacity doesn't warrant a quad.

 

[Lotso]

It looks like the current uphill capacity is 1,600/pph with an 8:50 transit time vs. a new capacity of 2,400/pph with 8:00 transit time.

Current: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l89922/
Planned: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l112057/

So, then factoring in the number of stops b/c people don't yet know how to load carpet chairs, it will be about the same

 

[HowieT2]

Alterra has much more money than POWDR. How they spend it is the issue.

no, it's not. I mean money is always an issue, but you know full well that there are other issues involved with increasing snowmaking capacity.

 

[thetrailboss]

no, it's not. I mean money is always an issue, but you know full well that there are other issues involved with increasing snowmaking capacity.

My point was directly in response to your comment that SB doesn't have as much of a budget for snowmaking.

 

[thetrailboss]

True, but Alterra is still a for-profit corporation and you're comparing one of the most successful mountains in New England (possibly the country) to one that is infamous for having a shortage of surrounding lodging (beds) and snowmaking capacity.

I suspect Alterra bought Sugarbush as a loss-leader to gain market share on Ikon sales. While they might run it at near-breakeven, I doubt they'd run it at a loss for any significant period of time. As a result, our infrastructure upgrades will likely be very slow to be implemented - especially where there's no material gain (e.g. replacing a triple with a triple).

Alterra did not buy Sugarbush as a "loss leader." That makes no sense at all, especially considering that they have invested in upgrades already.

 

[Hawk]

Both Win and John Hamond have both said on numerous occasions that Alterra bought Sugarbush and planned to let them run it oun our own. At least for now. Their intital due dillegence showed them that we are a vialble business. Our revenue stream for everything from lodging, food and Bev, rentals, lessons, etc. is what we have. Then add the day tickets and what ever cut they get for the IKON passes. It not like Alterra arrived 4 years ago and gave them carte blanche to spend away. It is my understanding that there is a plan in place with time lines for Capital projects like the Heavens Gate Quad. Next is North Ridge. I am sure there are more that we have not heard about. There is also talk about incremental snowmaking inprovements along with a new snow making pond. Those who think that Sugarbush can just spend up a storm to make everything perfect is not the reality.

 

[Hawk]

It looks like the current uphill capacity is 1,600/pph with an 8:50 transit time vs. a new capacity of 2,400/pph with 8:00 transit time.

Current: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l89922/
Planned: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l112057/

The plan as it was stated was to have the chair be spaced to deliver a similar amount of people to the top so that the trails would not be overwhelmed. The fixed grip quad was also picked because it is heavier and less prone to wind holds. They also said that they were going to make the lift a little lower to the ground, put open slats on the back and position the lift to minimise the wind holds. We will see how sucessful that all is. In my opinion they have been planning and thinking about htis lift for about 10 years. It's not some shoot from the hip decsion. Solar this is not directed at you. It's a general statement of the facts for everybody.

 

[WinS]

Both Win and John Hamond have both said on numerous occasions that Alterra bought Sugarbush and planned to let them run it oun our own. At least for now. Their intital due dillegence showed them that we are a vialble business. Our revenue stream for everything from lodging, food and Bev, rentals, lessons, etc. is what we have. Then add the day tickets and what ever cut they get for the IKON passes. It not like Alterra arrived 4 years ago and gave them carte blanche to spend away. It is my understanding that there is a plan in place with time lines for Capital projects like the Heavens Gate Quad. Next is North Ridge. I am sure there are more that we have not heard about. There is also talk about incremental snowmaking inprovements along with a new snow making pond. Those who think that Sugarbush can just spend up a storm to make everything perfect is not the reality.

You got that right. During my ownership we invested $70 million in capital improvements (not including the real estate that we developed). Most of this was from free cash flow but some was from equity, modest debt and EB-5 financing. Alterra is investing more than I could have as a stand alone business which is one of the reasons I sold to them. The cost of everything today is so much more expensive. I am no longer aware of the finances, but I am sure Sugarbush continues to be a valuable asset in the Alterra portfolio even if not as large as some of their Western Resorts and I suspect they are very pleased with the acquisiton.

 

[cdskier]

It looks like the current uphill capacity is 1,600/pph with an 8:50 transit time vs. a new capacity of 2,400/pph with 8:00 transit time.

Current: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l89922/
Planned: https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/sugarbush/ski-lifts/l112057/

I have no idea where that website is getting their information from, but it doesn't match what is in the ACT 250 application. I suppose the 1,600 from the old lift could have been the original design spec as it does match what liftblog had listed as well. The new capacity is quite a bit off from what Sugarbush stated in the application though.

Here are the numbers Sugarbush themselves provided in the ACT 250 application:

The project is a ski lift replacement project, which proposes a slight increase in lift capacity (from 1,468 passengers/hour to 1,814 passengers/hour).

 

[drjeff]

I have no idea where that website is getting their information from, but it doesn't match what is in the ACT 250 application. I suppose the 1,600 from the old lift could have been the original design spec as it does match what liftblog had listed as well. The new capacity is quite a bit off from what Sugarbush stated in the application though.

Here are the numbers Sugarbush themselves provided in the ACT 250 application:

Anyone else find it interesting that when you take that projected capacity of 1814/hr and divide it by 4, that you don't end up with a whole number? You get 453.5.. That math seems curious to me, unless they're going to grab 1 double chair from say Castletock, and throw it on the haul rope with the rest of the new quad chairs?!

 

[solar]

You got that right. During my ownership we invested $70 million in capital improvements (not including the real estate that we developed). Most of this was from free cash flow but some was from equity, modest debt and EB-5 financing. Alterra is investing more than I could have as a stand alone business which is one of the reasons I sold to them. The cost of everything today is so much more expensive. I am no longer aware of the finances, but I am sure Sugarbush continues to be a valuable asset in the Alterra portfolio even if not as large as some of their Western Resorts and I suspect they are very pleased with the acquisiton.

Thanks for weighing in @WinS - that's fantastic to hear.

There was a 2008 vegetation management plan that showed a few proposed lifts and trail developments. Do you happen to remember if any would still be viable expansion options for Alterra?

 

[djd66]

Anyone else find it interesting that when you take that projected capacity of 1814/hr and divide it by 4, that you don't end up with a whole number? You get 453.5.. That math seems curious to me, unless they're going to grab 1 double chair from say Castletock, and throw it on the haul rope with the rest of the new quad chairs?!

It is strange. FWIW, 1468 is not divisible by 3 either.

 

[Smellytele]

Really not that difficult. It is probably calculated by the day and then by hr. So every 2 hours you get 907 chairs.

 

[cdskier]

It is strange. FWIW, 1468 is not divisible by 3 either.

Neither is 1600 which was what solar posted and what liftblog also showed for the old lift. So apparently this is not entirely unusual.

 

[drjeff]

Neither is 1600 which was what solar posted and what liftblog also showed for the old lift. So apparently this is not entirely unusual.

I suspect that there is some equation where it is calculated that on average a lift will spin X # of minutes per hour vs the entire 60 minutes without stopping that the industry uses.

Just seems weird to see the numbers published that way where as most every other lift capacity that I can remember seeing posted has a round number that calulates out to X # of chairs unloading per hour times the carrying capacity of each carrier on the haul rope, and that number always seems to end up being a whole number....

 

[Hawk]

Aren't we splitting hairs a little bit too much here? It will be a new lift that will send up slightly more people than before. That is all. My biggest take away is that this lift will be new and will run much better, not break down and most likely run more often when there is marginal conditions with wind. Dr Jeff, I think you should get out of rut of skiing the same mountain and come up and visit when it is done. Change would do you good. Change does everybody good.