VAIL SUCKS

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Where have I ever said for them to reduce profitability?

I specifically said, fewer people at higher margins.

Sorry that's problematic for you and you'd rather see Rob Katz become Oprah and give everyone a free pass along with the free car.

The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.

 

[snoseek]

The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.

Yeah they know all about profitability but lack ability to look into the future. Imo their model is not sustainable...it caters to short term gains. Eventually people will move on.

 

[thebigo]

The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.

No, I do not think they have any clue how to run their recently acquired eastern properties. I think they are very good at running western resorts.

 

[Jersey Skier]

If those chairs were going up full, you think the wait would have changed?

My problem is the amount of time I spend skiing alone while kids are in program. Doubt I would have wanted more than five minutes all year if there a proper singles line and full chairs.

I honestly think if the lodges and bar were open the lift lines would have been fine. All the people had nothing to do but ski. Normally I think half these people ski for an hour then hang out.

 

[deadheadskier]

The presumption should be that Vail pros have figured out the price point that maximizes their profitability as they have the data, expertise and motivation to do that. So if they raise or lower prices from that point they would be making themselves less profitable. Correct me if you have better data sources or business expertise than they do.

Pros?

The pros that couldn't properly staff a call center?

The pros that couldn't properly staff snowmaking and lift operations in NH this winter even though their nearby neighbors didn't have the same issues?

Maybe they're pros at profit, but certainly not guest experience.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Pros?

The pros that couldn't properly staff a call center?

The pros that couldn't properly staff snowmaking and lift operations in NH this winter even though their nearby neighbors didn't have the same issues?

Maybe they're pros at profit, but certainly not guest experience.

We are talking about setting prices to maximize profitability, the goal of a public corporation. I expect Vail's pros are setting prices to do so better than our saying "raise prices" or " lower prices" could do it for them.

 

[cdskier]

Pros?

The pros that couldn't properly staff a call center?

The pros that couldn't properly staff snowmaking and lift operations in NH this winter even though their nearby neighbors didn't have the same issues?

Maybe they're pros at profit, but certainly not guest experience.

I'd also argue that I think they haven't yet "tested" how far they can push things with pass prices. This is a multi-year/multi-phase strategy to maximize profit. They're in "Phase 1" of their plan. Phase 1 is "offer a low price and see how much market-share we can take over via both low prices and acquisitions". Constant acquisitions have allowed them to continue to increase revenue and make stock-holders happy while they keep pass prices low. Once they hit a point where they believe they've maximized their market-share, then they enter "Phase 2". That's where they start to increase prices. If anyone thinks Epic is at the "sweet-spot" right now and will leave prices there, they're going to be in for a big surprise at some point.

 

[deadheadskier]

That's an overly simplistic and shortsighted view on things. There's a lot more that goes into profitability than just setting prices.

Maintaining a healthy customer base is certainly key to long term profitability for a ski area. If you don't deliver a good product, it doesn't matter how cheap it is. Some people will not return because their perception is the product is representative of the cheap price.

 

[abc]

I blows me away that there are pass options besides Ikon and Epic that are more expensive or equal for what we paid that offer much less value.

There're even cheaper passes that offers a lot of value! A-basin pass is less than Ikon/Epic, yet offers many reciprocal skiing the nearby mountains. Why would anyone who lives in that part of Colorado buy the more expensive Ikon pass is beyond me.

That said, value is in the eye of the beholder. If I were restricted to the northeast and not in a pandemic, Epic/Ikon would NOT be of good value no matter what the pass price. Why? Those mountains are just way too crowded on weekends. However, add the western resorts, it has values for me. That is because I normally travel out west. But for people who don't ski out west, and had to ski on weekends mostly? Not much value however cheap the price maybe. They're better off getting a pass at mountains far less busy. Paying more but skiing more on quieter slopes.

I certainly don't believe Vail sucks for offering a product that appeals to lots of people at a price point they can afford.

Just like Walmart doesn't suck for offering the same...

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

I'd also argue that I think they haven't yet "tested" how far they can push things with pass prices. This is a multi-year/multi-phase strategy to maximize profit. They're in "Phase 1" of their plan. Phase 1 is "offer a low price and see how much market-share we can take over via both low prices and acquisitions". Constant acquisitions have allowed them to continue to increase revenue and make stock-holders happy while they keep pass prices low. Once they hit a point where they believe they've maximized their market-share, then they enter "Phase 2". That's where they start to increase prices. If anyone thinks Epic is at the "sweet-spot" right now and will leave prices there, they're going to be in for a big surprise at some point.

Yes I expect prices to gradually go up. I will continue shopping for the best deal for places I like to ski every year - and hopefully will often change passes from year to year as I like some variety.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

That's an overly simplistic and shortsighted view on things. There's a lot more that goes into profitability than just setting prices.

Maintaining a healthy customer base is certainly key to long term profitability for a ski area. If you don't deliver a good product, it doesn't matter how cheap it is. Some people will not return because their perception is the product is representative of the cheap price.

Over my two years on Epic I have had a better ski experience than ever before, apart from last season ending early - and I was very happy with how I was compensated for that event.

 

[deadheadskier]

Over my two years on Epic I have had a better ski experience than ever before, apart from last season ending early - and I was very happy with how I was compensated for that event.

Good for you.

I don't know a single Cat or Attitash skier who have lengthy experience with both mountains that doesn't think Vail did a worse job running those mountains than at any time in the past ten years.

Numerous friends, myself included are moving on next season. People who have had passes at Cat for many years. Doesn't matter how cheap the passes are.

 

[Edd]

Prices for these are crazy good. You get so much for short $.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Good for you.

I don't know a single Cat or Attitash skier who have lengthy experience with both mountains that doesn't think Vail did a worse job running those mountains than at any time in the past ten years.

Numerous friends, myself included are moving on next season. People who have had passes at Cat for many years. Doesn't matter how cheap the passes are.

I've avoided those Mts this year based on reports like yours. I understand why you would be unhappy and want to.switch to a different pass. I have been unhappy with what they did at my closest Epic option Jack Frost. But it hasn't been a huge issue for me as I have 13 places on the pass I can drive to. It actually probably improved my ski experience by getting me to more often drive to further and better places.

Pretty sure I am going with Ikon next year - partially based on that - as Jack Frost option was for me their main advantage over Ikon which has nothing closer to me than Windham. But waiting to see Epic's offering before I decide.

 

[deadheadskier]

I think the people who you see most upset about Epic or Ikon are a bit different than you. They tend to be mountain loyalists. I certainly was for Wildcat and I was for Stowe for many years too when younger. Folks were mostly happy with how those places were run. Now not so much and we would be willing to pay significantly more to see things go back to how they were.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

I think the people who you see most upset about Epic or Ikon are a bit different than you. They tend to be mountain loyalists. I certainly was for Wildcat and I was for Stowe for many years too when younger. Folks were mostly happy with how those places were run. Now not so much and we would be willing to pay significantly more to see things go back to how they were.

I can understand that. I am the furthest thing from a loyalist. I get bored skiing the same place too often. I have never skied the same NE mountain more than 2 days in a row, and the one year we had a pass to a single hill (Blue in PA) we found it had gotten real boring by the end of the season.

I find mountain loyalists are often there for the camaraderie with folks they know as much as for the skiing, and that's never been my thing. I am a very social guy but my social life tends to revolve around my other passion - the people I make music with. So if hanging with regulars at the same Mt is your thing and/or you buy a place near a Mt and are wedded to it for that reason - I can see why low priced multi Mt passes by a corp that cares more about its huge CO operations than NE skiing may have killed something you love. And I am not trying to convert you.

I am just
1. Sharing the other side of the coin that my experience represents
2. Pointing out that this business model is doing well enough that doubling pass prices to keep crowds away is not about to happen any time soon and that it would upset far more skiers than it would please
3. Suggesting that your best move if you want to avoid the crowds that come with this model is for you and your group of unhappy with Vail skier pals to agree on a still independent Mt to frequent instead - even if it requires a real estate transaction to do so - as in the end I expect Alterra and Vail are not gonna be much more different than Visa and Mastercard - and will also keep one another from raising prices too much so long as they both exist.

 

[Mum skier]

I'd be onboard with that. If Vail said, pick two mountains for unlimited access and then we will give you three days a piece everywhere else, that would be a better balance.

Yes I also think ithat would work for many people. Chose 1 or 2 mountains as your home mountain for unlimited unrestricted and your base price depends on the two you choose. Crotched and Sunapee are cheaper than Stowe/Snow sort of model. Then say 2-5 days at the other resort. You could still do a weeks trip west with the CO or California resorts being close enough to each other to fill the week even with limited days.
wildcat and Attitash combination could be free as they don’t open any lifts!

 

[deadheadskier]

I can understand that. I am the furthest thing from a loyalist. I get bored skiing the same place too often. I have never skied the same NE mountain more than 2 days in a row, and the one year we had a pass to a single hill (Blue in PA) we found it had gotten real boring by the end of the season.

I find mountain loyalists are often there for the camaraderie with folks they know as much as for the skiing, and that's never been my thing. I am a very social guy but my social life tends to revolve around my other passion - the people I make music with. So if hanging with regulars at the same Mt is your thing and/or you buy a place near a Mt and are wedded to it for that reason - I can see why low priced multi Mt passes by a corp that cares more about its huge CO operations than NE skiing may have killed something you love. And I am not trying to convert you.

I am just
1. Sharing the other side of the coin that my experience represents
2. Pointing out that this business model is doing well enough that doubling pass prices to keep crowds away is not about to happen any time soon and that it would upset far more skiers than it would please
3. Suggesting that your best move if you want to avoid the crowds that come with this model is for you and your group of unhappy with Vail skier pals to agree on a still independent Mt to frequent instead - even if it requires a real estate transaction to do so - as in the end I expect Alterra and Vail are not gonna be much more different than Visa and Mastercard - and will also keep one another from raising prices too much so long as they both exist.

Nope

My loyalty to those mountains has everything to do with the terrain first and foremost.

As for your Visa / MC analogy; I suggest you study a bit of history. 15 years ago people said the same about Intrawest and American skiing company. The mighty can and do fall.

 

[Ski2LiveLive2Ski]

Nope

My loyalty to those mountains has everything to do with the terrain first and foremost.

As for your Visa / MC analogy; I suggest you study a bit of history. 15 years ago people said the same about Intrawest and American skiing company. The mighty can and do fall.

I'm not saying Vail and Alterra are forever. I am saying that they are not that different and will keep pricing competitively with one another.

Certainly the loyalists I have known well (at Blue, Loon and Sunday River) have all valued the people and the location as much as the terrain. I grant you Wildcat and Stowe have more special terrain. But I'd still not want either one to be the sole place I skied all year personally. I crave variety and want to be able to go to the place I think will have the best combination of weather and conditions on any given day - so I find a pass with a range of options preferable.

 

[Old Duderino]

Long time Sno-time skier/rider here from the Wash DC area. I'm kinda on the fence about renewing my Epic pass but probably will because I can justify getting my money's worth out of it between a combo of local hill days and trips to either CO and/or maybe NE. Due to covid I just got the eastern pass this year and I posted several pages ago on this thread about a potential trip I was going to take to Stowe that I ended up doing it and had a awesome time with great conditions there in early Feb. I didn't get to take a CO trip due to covid this year so this Stowe trip really helped to scratch that itch.

I have limited ability to get away with a daughter who is a college athlete playing a spring sport that's in season now so I'm contemplating the previously unthinkable that I was hoping to get some feedback from here. She has a spring break bye week on the weekend of March 27th & 28th so I am actually pondering a road trip for a weekend at, yes Hunter. The weather forecast is looking iffy at the moment which will be the ultimate decider but I'm hoping that because this is near the end of the season it won't be as bad as usual with crowds. I took a couple of peeks at the webcam today and it didn't look so horrible with what appears to be good conditions (it was sunny and low 40's in DC so I'm guessing it was similar to slightly colder there).

So any feedback on what to expect at Hunter on a late March weekend crowd wise would be appreciated as well as the current conditions there. I could alter my plans and make a trip to Mt Snow but it's an additional 3+ hour drive for what I imagine is similar terrain and conditions. TIA.