Alterra and DV Presidents Speak at Virtual Town Hall Event in Park City

[gladerider]

are you saying you are willing to pay $200 more per pass to see shorter lines?
how much shorter would be happy with? what if it is not noticeable?

also, for many retail operations, top line sales is as important as the bottom line.

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm no marketing genius. But I would think IKON can use a more "tiered" approach, as they started last year, by putting Jackson and Aspen on a "premium". I'm specifically thinking of Alta/Bird which should be on a premium level just like Aspen/Jackson. That would induce people to either buy the full pass, or drive the cheapskates to the other mountains in the area.

Unfortunately that is something that Alta/Snowbird need to dictate. Right now they are too punch drunk from the $$$$ to consider such a change.

 

[JimG.]

are you saying you are willing to pay $200 more per pass to see shorter lines?
how much shorter would be happy with? what if it is not noticeable?

also, for many retail operations, top line sales is as important as the bottom line.

I would consider $200 very cheap to reduce crowd sizes.

But I would never buy a megapass anyway. Any pass that allows someone to ski at as many places as Epic or Ikon should cost $2,000 minimum. If that were the case I might consider buying it myself. Only because I'm willing to pay for quality over quantity. Megapasses DO NOT cater to quality.

 

[abc]

Unfortunately that is something that Alta/Snowbird need to dictate. Right now they are too punch drunk from the $$$$ to consider such a change.

They do need to decide. I would assume they get a slightly higher payout for visits IF the pass cost extra for their resort alone....

But like I said, I'm no marketing guru.

 

[ss20]

are you saying you are willing to pay $200 more per pass to see shorter lines?
how much shorter would be happy with? what if it is not noticeable?

also, for many retail operations, top line sales is as important as the bottom line.

As far as lines go a $200 increase would probably deter zero of the Ikon passholders on this forum....but apply it to the general population and you'd lose a solid percentage. Maybe between 5-10%?

I think Alterra would be OK with losing some of the retail, food, lessons, lodging etc that are the true profit centers. Vail can sell a cheap pass because 90% of the skiing on that pass is at Vail-owned properties. Ikon doesn't own a majority of the pass destinations. So while Vail entices you with a cheap pass to get you in-the-door in hopes you'll buy $15 cheeseburgers, Alterra would be better off maximizing revenue through the Ikon pass as that's where their revenue comes from since they don't control the ancillary services at most places on the Ikon pass.

Some people have proposed that we're seeing a "race towards the bottom" in pass wars. I don't see it that way. You simply can't have an industry where both of the main competitors use price-based competition. The only example I can think of where this happens is low-budget airlines and they always fail. Even between Target and Walmart, Target creates an image of quality and low prices while Walmart just focuses on being the lowest price. Vail is Walmart and Ikon is Target.

 

[thetrailboss]

I would consider $200 very cheap to reduce crowd sizes.

But I would never buy a megapass anyway. Any pass that allows someone to ski at as many places as Epic or Ikon should cost $2,000 minimum. If that were the case I might consider buying it myself. Only because I'm willing to pay for quality over quantity. Megapasses DO NOT cater to quality.

Exactly.

 

[thetrailboss]

They do need to decide. I would assume they get a slightly higher payout for visits IF the pass cost extra for their resort alone....

But like I said, I'm no marketing guru.

I would not hold my breath. For whatever odd reason Alta and Snowbird can't agree on much. It's especially odd considering that they are neighbors and, at last check, Snowbird had some stake in the ownership of Alta (unless that changed when Ian Cumming took over the majority stake of Snowbird). Alta asked Dick Bass to buy a stake in the late 1990's/early 2000's.

 

[thetrailboss]

Some people have proposed that we're seeing a "race towards the bottom" in pass wars. I don't see it that way. You simply can't have an industry where both of the main competitors use price-based competition. The only example I can think of where this happens is low-budget airlines and they always fail. Even between Target and Walmart, Target creates an image of quality and low prices while Walmart just focuses on being the lowest price. Vail is Walmart and Ikon is Target.

I think it is hard to say now considering that Alterra "went first" with their pass offering. Had they waited would they have dropped the price? Maybe, maybe not. I am inclined to think not.

As a private entity, we don't know anything about Alterra and its revenue, expenses, debt, etc. That said, we are seeing some signs as to what is happening. I think Vail's strategy is to squeeze them. Hence the undercut in pricing. As to the cost increases at DV and other products, I think it is in part because Alterra needs to pay down a lot of debt/investors who financed their initial buying spree now almost four years ago. Remember that in short order they took on Deer Valley, Steamboat, Stratton, Tremblant, Big Bear, June, Crystal, and some other smaller former Intrawest areas. Then they added Solitude and recently Sugarbush. That's a lot of buying. Add to it investments at Steamboat and DV in a few new lifts. That's a lot in a very short amount of time.

The discussion about "morphing Ikon into a lifestyle platform" suggests that they are looking ahead to making something more than a season pass for skiing. We'll see.

 

[machski]

I'm no marketing genius. But I would think IKON can use a more "tiered" approach, as they started last year, by putting Jackson and Aspen on a "premium". I'm specifically thinking of Alta/Bird which should be on a premium level just like Aspen/Jackson. That would induce people to either buy the full pass, or drive the cheapskates to the other mountains in the area.

I am unconvinced this has done much to deter folks from Aspens/JHMR (except for those of us who get the Ikon Base as an add on to our home resort pass and CANNOT upgrade to put Aspen and JHMR. That pisses me off personally). Alta/Bird IIRC is a COMBINED 5 or 7 days. Would putting that on the mid tier pricing really do much? I don't think so. My guess is if it is locals on the Ikon causing the crowds, they have wanted max days there and are on the Full Ikon already, which is still only 7 days up LCC. I don't know, if Alta/Bird were in the same situation as Crystal in WA then you'd have reason to btch about Ikon. Where it's not even close to the same, I just don't see it. There has to be other reasons beyond Ikon.

 

[thetrailboss]

Alta/Bird IIRC is a COMBINED 5 or 7 days. Would putting that on the mid tier pricing really do much? I don't think so. My guess is if it is locals on the Ikon causing the crowds, they have wanted max days there and are on the Full Ikon already, which is still only 7 days up LCC.

Yep. Exactly.

I don't know, if Alta/Bird were in the same situation as Crystal in WA then you'd have reason to btch about Ikon. Where it's not even close to the same, I just don't see it. There has to be other reasons beyond Ikon.

Well, we are in a similar situation. The pass and population growth have accelerated the problem. The wildcard here though is that Utah has been considering doing "something" to 210 for a while now and Alta/Bird are hoping that we taxpayers will bail them out of this situation so that they can continue to have more skiers and riders. So both are waiting to see what happens to 210. If nothing really changes then I would imagine that the cacophony of us passholders will eventually make them consider a change.

And the biggest losers here have been Brighton passholders. In my ten years out here, there have always been days when avalanche/weather closed LCC or created traffic backups. BCC--not so much. Before Solitude was bought by Alterra and became the "unlimited" Ikon resort, backups on 190 were rare and limited to powder days when LCC was closed. Now traffic is backed up onto 215 nearly every weekend and holiday. That is insane.

 

[cdskier]

I would consider $200 very cheap to reduce crowd sizes.

But I would never buy a megapass anyway. Any pass that allows someone to ski at as many places as Epic or Ikon should cost $2,000 minimum. If that were the case I might consider buying it myself. Only because I'm willing to pay for quality over quantity. Megapasses DO NOT cater to quality.

I agree somewhat, but not entirely. Without having access to the analytical data, it is hard to say what the price should be because I don't know the usage patterns of the passes that are sold. Keep in mind that there are a number of people that buy a "megapass" with the intention of using it at a single resort (essentially what I do with Ikon at Sugarbush). Is that a large percentage of the typical usage or a small percentage? $2K might be fair for a true mega-pass with no restrictions AS LONG AS individual mountain season passes to the resorts in that particular mega-pass's portfolio are offered for a substantially lower price (say ~$1K). The problem right now is that "tiering" really doesn't exist. For a Sugarbush skier, you basically have no choice other than Ikon (unless you are local and ski mid-week and can get away with one of the cheaper mid-week SB-only type passes that they still offer).

I still think the ideal scenario for mega-passes is to require you to pick a "home" resort where you get unlimited access and then you get only a limited number of days everywhere else on the pass.

 

[thetrailboss]

I agree somewhat, but not entirely. Without having access to the analytical data, it is hard to say what the price should be because I don't know the usage patterns of the passes that are sold. Keep in mind that there are a number of people that buy a "megapass" with the intention of using it at a single resort (essentially what I do with Ikon at Sugarbush). Is that a large percentage of the typical usage or a small percentage? $2K might be fair for a true mega-pass with no restrictions AS LONG AS individual mountain season passes to the resorts in that particular mega-pass's portfolio are offered for a substantially lower price (say ~$1K). The problem right now is that "tiering" really doesn't exist. For a Sugarbush skier, you basically have no choice other than Ikon (unless you are local and ski mid-week and can get away with one of the cheaper mid-week SB-only type passes that they still offer).

I still think the ideal scenario for mega-passes is to require you to pick a "home" resort where you get unlimited access and then you get only a limited number of days everywhere else on the pass.

So as a former SB passholder, this would concern me as I primarily only skied at Sugarbush. I'm paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use.

And as to the ideal scenario, I would not be surprised if that is what they eventually move to with Ikon so as to direct more revenue to their own resorts.

 

[ss20]

I think it is hard to say now considering that Alterra "went first" with their pass offering. Had they waited would they have dropped the price? Maybe, maybe not. I am inclined to think not.

As a private entity, we don't know anything about Alterra and its revenue, expenses, debt, etc. That said, we are seeing some signs as to what is happening. I think Vail's strategy is to squeeze them. Hence the undercut in pricing. As to the cost increases at DV and other products, I think it is in part because Alterra needs to pay down a lot of debt/investors who financed their initial buying spree now almost four years ago. Remember that in short order they took on Deer Valley, Steamboat, Stratton, Tremblant, Big Bear, June, Crystal, and some other smaller former Intrawest areas. Then they added Solitude and recently Sugarbush. That's a lot of buying. Add to it investments at Steamboat and DV in a few new lifts. That's a lot in a very short amount of time.

The discussion about "morphing Ikon into a lifestyle platform" suggests that they are looking ahead to making something more than a season pass for skiing. We'll see.

We agree on something!

Yeah I see pass price increases as Alterra's only sure way of increasing revenue, unlike Vail who can cut pass prices knowing they'll get that $$$ back in hamburgers and ski school.

I personally have used a fraction of my Ikon days at the Alterra resorts. Off the top of my head I've done 15 days at Alterra resorts and 25 days at partner resorts.

 

[thetrailboss]

We agree on something!

Yeah I see pass price increases as Alterra's only sure way of increasing revenue, unlike Vail who can cut pass prices knowing they'll get that $$$ back in hamburgers and ski school.

I personally have used a fraction of my Ikon days at the Alterra resorts. Off the top of my head I've done 15 days at Alterra resorts and 25 days at partner resorts.

I'm sure we agree on more than you would realize.

And your personal split as to Alterra vs. Partner is something that will make Alterra consider (a) buying more of its own resorts, or (b) starting to push folks to use their resorts.

It seemed to me that the strategy was to use the multi-mountain pass as a sweetener to entice people to come to Alterra and to jumpstart their own individual growth and to slowly move customers away from the partners. They certainly have a good spread of their own resorts.

It also seems quite interesting how the other multi-resort companies--Boyne and POWDR in particular--have few if any multiresort pass offerings. Boyne offers NE options. POWDR offers nothing.

 

[cdskier]

So as a former SB passholder, this would concern me as I primarily only skied at Sugarbush. I'm paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use.

I'm paying less for Ikon than a standalone adult SB pass cost 5 years ago... So I really don't see it as me "paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use". I see it more of "free benefits that are there if I happen to want to use them."

 

[thetrailboss]

I'm paying less for Ikon than a standalone adult SB pass cost 5 years ago... So I really don't see it as me "paying for a lot of benefits that I don't use". I see it more of "free benefits that are there if I happen to want to use them."

True. I was thinking about pass prices 10 years ago I guess. A full SB price was at what, $1,200 or so prior to Alterra? More?

That said, being a captive audience would concern me.

 

[cdskier]

True. I was thinking about pass prices 10 years ago I guess. A full SB price was at what, $1,200 or so prior to Alterra? More?

That said, being a captive audience would concern me.

I think $1150 was around the last price I recall paying for a full adult SB pass (for the next few years after that before Alterra they introduced a "For 30s" pass which I was eligible for so my price dropped for a couple years to closer to $500-$600 I think).

 

[thetrailboss]

I think $1150 was around the last price I recall paying for a full adult SB pass (for the next few years after that before Alterra they introduced a "For 30s" pass which I was eligible for so my price dropped for a couple years to closer to $500-$600 I think).

$500-600 for a SB pass is a steal. I do recall them adding more promos and discount categories in part to keep a broad product line up. And $1,050 was the last number I can remember for a SB season pass, so going up to $1,150 in ten years is not much of a jump.

I did the ME Plus pass the last few years I was there. I think it was about $719.

 

[cdskier]

$500-600 for a SB pass is a steal. I do recall them adding more promos and discount categories in part to keep a broad product line up. And $1,050 was the last number I can remember for a SB season pass, so going up to $1,150 in ten years is not much of a jump.

I did the ME Plus pass the last few years I was there. I think it was about $719.

Yea, the pass prices held fairly steady for a number of years with only minimal increases...

2011-2012 - $299 (first year of the For 20s pass being offered which is what pushed me to look for and buy a condo at SB)
2012-2013 - $1049
2013-2014 - $1049
2014-2015 - $1049
2015-2016 - $1099
2016-2017 - $1149
2017-2018 - $549 (For 30s)
2018-2019 - $539 (For 30s)
2019-2020 - $579 (For 30s)

 

[kingslug]

I'm very happy that I will have a pass to SB..and would have paid 1049.00 for it..but Ikon is a steal.