The "Sugarbush Thread"

[thetrailboss]

From what I've heard the big 200 unit housing project was nixxed by Sugarbush due to cost, ..as was downhill biking. Cost of lift maintenance, lift ops, patrol, bike shop, and food/beverage simply did not cover the limited income. Downhill biking is also much more equipment-specific (expensive) and relatively dangerous compared to trail riding.
The Town of Warren is actively looking at ways to increase affordable housing, including limits to STRs and allowing accessory apartments. Same for Waitsfield, who are also planning a downtown sewer project, at great expense.

So Alterra is not moving forward with the employee housing project?

 

[Plowboy]

So Alterra is not moving forward with the employee housing project?

From what I’ve heard a big part of the problem is the sewer system. The waste water treatment plant is at capacity. Nothing on site available and off site is $$$$$.

 

[thetrailboss]

From what I’ve heard a big part of the problem is the sewer system. The waste water treatment plant is at capacity. Nothing on site available and off site is $$$$$.

Sounds like a shitty deal……







(Thank you, tip your waitstaff well).

 

[machski]

I haven’t followed it that closely but the parts that I remember seem to be coming to fruition. What’s been downplayed?

Well, TL replacement went from this past summer to hopefully next summer, no word on SQ replacement, same with DR out of the base. They have been expanding and increasing pumping capacity of the snowmaking system, but all date targets are gone from the 2030 plan page now. That is a big change.

 

[thetrailboss]

Well, TL replacement went from this past summer to hopefully next summer, no word on SQ replacement, same with DR out of the base. They have been expanding and increasing pumping capacity of the snowmaking system, but all date targets are gone from the 2030 plan page now. That is a big change.

LiftBlog is reporting that the TL Replacement is still on the list for next year.

And no new lifts for SB in 2026 or 2027 (yet).

2026 New Lifts

This is a list of new lifts likely to be built in the United States and Canada during the 2026 construction season. Last updated 10/18/2025. Have an addition or correction? Comment below or email …

liftblog.com

 

[machski]

LiftBlog is reporting that the TL Replacement is still on the list for next year.

And no new lifts for SB in 2026 or 2027 (yet).

2026 New Lifts

This is a list of new lifts likely to be built in the United States and Canada during the 2026 construction season. Last updated 10/18/2025. Have an addition or correction? Comment below or email …

liftblog.com

I get that, but it was originally expected for this season and then they pushed it to a two year deal. And while SL is getting new or upgraded lifts, they are all refurbs so far (for the last HSQ and next HSS). Make of that what you will, but doesn't sound like the return is there to install all new machines.

 

[thetrailboss]

I get that, but it was originally expected for this season and then they pushed it to a two year deal. And while SL is getting new or upgraded lifts, they are all refurbs so far (for the last HSQ and next HSS). Make of that what you will, but doesn't sound like the return is there to install all new machines.

Yeah, I completely hear you about the "refurbs" versus "new" issue. Honestly, the refurbished lifts that I have ridden (Shedhorn at Big Sky) and seen (the HSQs at Pleasant and SL) are really nice, but there is something to be said about getting a new, new lift with completely new components. Boyne had big ambitions for Sugarloaf when they purchased it in 2007. I remember folks saying that Boyne wanted to make it the Big Sky of the east and, well, it has been a slow and painful few decades with two very bad lift incidents that really gave Boyne a black eye--especially since Boyne prides itself on being a leader in lift technology.

I am curious why they are not replacing SuperQuad FIRST before Timberline. When we visited in 2023 SuperQuad was showing its age. Timberline is slow, but it's a fixed grip and can go forever. Yes, it is a Borvig lift and probably getting parts is a pain, but I'd think that upgrading what is arguably the single most important lift at the resort should be a higher priority.

I will say that when we visited in January 2023 we were BLOWN AWAY by the amount of snowmaking they had done and how much they had open when pretty much everywhere else completely sucked. Burke was glare ice.

And I am pretty sure that LiftBlog was reporting that Timberline was going to be a two-year project. Such refurbs have been. They need time to remove the lift, evaluate what can be reused, and then manufacture the new equipment. IIRC Pleasant Mountain's HSQ required two years from removal to install. Same with Bucksaw Express. Perhaps Boyne was being bullish and said it would be one year?

I have a special place in my heart for Sugarloaf. My wife learned to ski there. We love going back. I want to visit this winter at least once. I was happy to see that Boyne had maintained things pretty well, but it could use some new lifts and similar upgrades.

/End thread highjack.

 

[MrGlen]

I pretty much agree with all of this. I've been a devoted SB skier for 15 or so years. For the first 10 years of that it was more often than not, family trips to SB. Now it's mostly just me. I think that the terrain is great and I love that they keep plenty of stuff ungroomed. Early on I was looking at buying a place up there. I never pulled the trigger and then the covid RE bump hit which made things that much more expensive. Now I'm glad that I didn't do it. Other than really fun skiing, there's simply not enough for my family and I to do up there, especially at night. I can count on one hand how many times I've stayed in the Valley. We stay in or around Burlington as there's more nightlife. Frankly Burlington has plenty of challenges, but that's probably best for another topic.

Agree on the fact that Burlington certainly has more to offer. That hour drive up there is killer though after a long day.

It’s sad to say this, but with how things are trending around the valley, seems like it’s progressing towards something similar to Burke, while Killington and Stowe are flourishing.

 

[mikec142]

Agree on the fact that Burlington certainly has more to offer. That hour drive up there is killer though after a long day.

It’s sad to say this, but with how things are trending around the valley, seems like it’s progressing towards something similar to Burke, while Killington and Stowe are flourishing.

It's all weather dependent. The ride home rarely bothered me. Even in bad weather, I could just take my time (or leave the mountain at the right time). I've had some drives from burlingotn to the mountain where I had to turn around and punt on the day which is alway super frustrating. Snow tires and an unwavering confidence that I can drive slowly in the right lane (or not care if traffic is stacked up behind me on 100 has made things easier.

 

[cdskier]

Agree on the fact that Burlington certainly has more to offer. That hour drive up there is killer though after a long day.

It’s sad to say this, but with how things are trending around the valley, seems like it’s progressing towards something similar to Burke, while Killington and Stowe are flourishing.

I have no desire to drive to Waterbury from the mountain, never-mind Burlington. This is an interesting topic. Part of the appeal of Sugarbush to me vs K or Stowe was the fact that it was more remote and "quaint". Even though I don't want a big party scene, I do think we've lost quite a few restaurants over the past few years and that's not good. My desire to leave my condo to go out to dinner now is very low. I'm at a point where I'd rather just cook most weekends as there just aren't a ton of appealing options to me right now.

 

[Terry]

Yeah, I completely hear you about the "refurbs" versus "new" issue. Honestly, the refurbished lifts that I have ridden (Shedhorn at Big Sky) and seen (the HSQs at Pleasant and SL) are really nice, but there is something to be said about getting a new, new lift with completely new components. Boyne had big ambitions for Sugarloaf when they purchased it in 2007. I remember folks saying that Boyne wanted to make it the Big Sky of the east and, well, it has been a slow and painful few decades with two very bad lift incidents that really gave Boyne a black eye--especially since Boyne prides itself on being a leader in lift technology.

I am curious why they are not replacing SuperQuad FIRST before Timberline. When we visited in 2023 SuperQuad was showing its age. Timberline is slow, but it's a fixed grip and can go forever. Yes, it is a Borvig lift and probably getting parts is a pain, but I'd think that upgrading what is arguably the single most important lift at the resort should be a higher priority.

I will say that when we visited in January 2023 we were BLOWN AWAY by the amount of snowmaking they had done and how much they had open when pretty much everywhere else completely sucked. Burke was glare ice.

And I am pretty sure that LiftBlog was reporting that Timberline was going to be a two-year project. Such refurbs have been. They need time to remove the lift, evaluate what can be reused, and then manufacture the new equipment. IIRC Pleasant Mountain's HSQ required two years from removal to install. Same with Bucksaw Express. Perhaps Boyne was being bullish and said it would be one year?

I have a special place in my heart for Sugarloaf. My wife learned to ski there. We love going back. I want to visit this winter at least once. I was happy to see that Boyne had maintained things pretty well, but it could use some new lifts and similar upgrades.

/End thread highjack.

The Pleasant Mt HSQ was done in 1 summer. The lift was taken out at Sunday River two summers before then.

 

[jaytrem]

And I am pretty sure that LiftBlog was reporting that Timberline was going to be a two-year project. Such refurbs have been. They need time to remove the lift, evaluate what can be reused, and then manufacture the new equipment. IIRC Pleasant Mountain's HSQ required two years from removal to install. Same with Bucksaw Express. Perhaps Boyne was being bullish and said it would be one year?

/End thread highjack.

When I was at Lonesome Pines last year, I was chatting with some Sugarloaf employees while waiting for the lift to open (they were really there for a big dog sled race). I asked about Timberline, they said they weren't 100% sure the six-pack was going there but it's still most likely. I'm pretty sure the other option that they mentioned was the SuperQuad replacement.

/end thread highjack again.

 

[1dog]

I have no desire to drive to Waterbury from the mountain, never-mind Burlington. This is an interesting topic. Part of the appeal of Sugarbush to me vs K or Stowe was the fact that it was more remote and "quaint". Even though I don't want a big party scene, I do think we've lost quite a few restaurants over the past few years and that's not good. My desire to leave my condo to go out to dinner now is very low. I'm at a point where I'd rather just cook most weekends as there just aren't a ton of appealing options to me right now.

When you think about all the places that have come and gone over the past 10 years-two things seem to be constant:
Not enough staff ( that was reportedly what put The Den/Blue Stone under recently)

Not enough traffic to sustain consistent employment.

The seasonality requires discipline in cash flow and staff management.

I bet outside of a very few the longevity of the average dining/drinking spot is 3-7 years tops.
( yes, pulling that out of my butt)

Gallaghers? ( place that Hydeaway operated as well-Sage, and the other Egan place)
Big World Pub?
Smoke House? ( place before w pool tables too)
Worthy Burger
Even longer term places were turned into housing -Blue Tooth and (common man or whatever was at South end of German Flats plus place up across on hill)

Seems the ones who have staying power have other sources of revenue - Hydeaway, Tucker Hill Inn, Flatbread, Hotel Tevere,Mad Barn, etc.


Part goes back to lack of beds in valley compared to Stowe/Killington but most of valley likes the lack of madness-no one wants chain hotels or eateries there -just tough to get traffic when 30-40% ofcustomers gotta drive 15-30 miles from those other places.

 

[Lotso]

RIP, in addition to above:
Bass Tavern/ Terra Rossa
can't keep track of the Sugarbush Village places...
Sam Rupert's
Bongiorno's
DW Pearl's/ Purple Moon/Easy Street
now Swanson Inn: used to be a great little restaurant/B&B. Served Anadama bread with meal...really good
revolving door on Bridge street...
Olde Times

That being said, glad Mad Taco, Fit to be Thai'd, Canteen and others are still at it. Really tough time to be in the restaurant biz.

I think Kitchenette is the new model for resort areas, since staff can't live here anymore b/c STR's have made renting to ski bums impossible/

 

[jonnyco14]

There is a lot of real estate on the market at the moment. Prices have started to fall from the covid highs. Looks like there are 50 places for sale in the valley. I am sure a lot of people were priced out of the valley when prices doubled during covid. The single family homes are still expensive at >$500k. Maybe that will bring more permanent residents vs. seasonal visitors in the future. Getting single family prices down + creating more beds on the mountain would help everything. Adding a hotel to the heli lot seems like something that needs to happen which would tie the new village & old village together and just generally put more people in the village to support restaurants .

I do think sugarbush has an opportunity to be creative and offer a different experience kinda like sugarloaf with burnt mountain. They could do this with slide-brook from both sides. Personally, I like it the way it is and don't need everyone jumping in there but from a marketing standpoint it is a missed opportunity. They could also create a touring area above inverness with a few glade lines utilizing the long trail (John Hammond mentioned this on a pod cast a few years ago). Tap into the younger hardcore skier crowd vs. stowe which caters to epic and killington which caters to the party crowd. Seems pretty low cost to me as they don't need new lifts but might have to run more shuttles.

When it runs, there is hardly ever a line at Northridge except on some holidays but in comparison to lift lines at other mountains it is relatively short. Mt. Ellen is underutilized generally which I love because it is usually empty.

The other big challenge I see at is there is limited beginner terrain to be considered a destination resort. Whenever we have guests that is always someone that wants to ski greens. There is one on Lincoln peak and out to lunch isn't maintained for beginners. At Ellen, all the beginner terrain is ungrommed (Walt's, graduation) or have a terrain park on it, so you are really just left with Northstar, not to mention all of the lessons are at Lincoln peak. This is a big gap in comparison to most other mountains in Vermont. Mad River is way easier and a better experience for someone looking to ski greens

 

[thetrailboss]

When I was at Lonesome Pines last year, I was chatting with some Sugarloaf employees while waiting for the lift to open (they were really there for a big dog sled race). I asked about Timberline, they said they weren't 100% sure the six-pack was going there but it's still most likely. I'm pretty sure the other option that they mentioned was the SuperQuad replacement.

/end thread highjack again.

I certainly understand the logic in replacing SuperQuad first as it is older. But from a capacity standpoint, having Timberline be a 6 pack makes sense as it is collecting traffic from two HSQ's and Skyline Quad. The only thing that has me a bit puzzeled is that dumping that traffic on the summit may result in a bit of a traffic bottleneck in early season and when the snowfields are closed.

 

[thetrailboss]

The Pleasant Mt HSQ was done in 1 summer. The lift was taken out at Sunday River two summers before then.

Correct. Jordan came out in like 2023 and was installed the next summer at Pleasant. Swift Current Six was removed from Big Sky in 2022 and reinstalled at Sugarloaf in 2023.

 

[Plowboy]

now Swanson Inn: used to be a great little restaurant/B&B. Served Anadama bread with meal...really good

Sugarbush just closed on the Swanson Inn last week, Last year it was leased to SB for J1 housing, now they own it.

 

[Plowboy]

I think Kitchenette is the new model for resort areas, since staff can't live here anymore b/c STR's have made renting to ski bums impossible/

Ski bums?? There are very few ski bums left here! Most of the ones here are 55+, own a $750K+ house and become an ambassador for a free pass.

 

[machski]

Correct. Jordan came out in like 2023 and was installed the next summer at Pleasant. Swift Current Six was removed from Big Sky in 2022 and reinstalled at Sugarloaf in 2023.

Close, Jordan came out in summer 2022. It sat in a lot off the Jordan access road for at least a year before the decision to refurb and move it to Pleasant.