The "Sugarbush Thread"

[jimmywilson69]

If they can't even effectively use all their current water capacity (which is already under-sized), that's a problem.

This is a crazy revelation...

 

[thetrailboss]

This particular topic/issue of only 1 working compressor at LP has never come up. Either it is new (i.e. cooling issues on the other 2 air compressors at LP just started) or it has flown under the radar and been hidden from people.

If they can't even effectively use all their current water capacity (which is already under-sized), that's a problem.

That is disappointing.

 

[MrGlen]

Spoke with John Hammond today at the mountain. Plan is to open castle rock this weekend. Hike only access from heavens gate. They were hoping to build a base this weekend and then open the lifts the following week. The maintenance team has been up working on the lift working to get it ready. It’s shaping up to be a great final season for that lift before it’s replaced with the new high speed quad.

 

[thetrailboss]

It’s shaping up to be a great final season for that lift before it’s replaced with the new high speed quad.

Good one.

 

[HowieT2]

Hey, pretend some of us don’t know a centac from a bicycle pump, what Are we talking about ballpark in terms of money to get the compressor capacity they should have at LP?
fwiw-I have a compressor on board my pickup if they want to borrow whilst I ski?

 

[slatham]

Good one.

I was like, how did he get from Castle Rock to North Ridge, without even mentioning NRX lol…..

 

[fulgoreXC]

Yes, if they only have 4100 CFM for a mountain that pumps ~4,000 GPM then no matter how they spin it, that is entirely inadequate by a factor of at least 2.

With that little air compression, not only are they not even capable of using all available water, the product that they can make in marginal temps is going to be worse than usual. It's going to be wetter (because as Fulgore indicated, they are valved to favor air savings) and it's going to take longer than most anyone else to convert the same GPM/acre.

I don't have any flow charts for No Logics but for an HKD Impulse 12 if you're assuming 4,000 GPM nameplate capacity. Knock off a couple hundred GPM for the bleeds/returns. So say 3,800 CFM.

3,800 GPM / 30 GPM (typical R4/R5 Impulse on Stage 3) = 126 guns
126 x 66 CFM (typical R4/R5 Impulse on Stage 3) = 8,360 CFM air requirement

So they need to double their air plant to be able to use all of their water in a middle of the run wet bulb.

HKDs step down the air on Stage 3 and 4 to about 20cfm. Logics stay at 12 to 18 depending on the nozzle configuration. Limited air capacity is really only an issue in the early season marginal temps. Mostly just November and a few weeks in December. Once temps drop below 20 or so the system becomes water dominant. That's when air/water ratio flips and the supply of water becomes the driver. and the quality of snow gets better.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, water is the main problem. The watershed baseflow essentially dries up as winter temps arrive. Here's a fun piece of data. If you watch (online) the USGS gauge down in Moretown when the flow rate drops below 125cfs it's below the February Mean Flow and therefore SB cannot withdraw from the river. When that happens only what's in the pond that can be used. There is only a few days of storage. Thus, the need for more storage.

 

[HowieT2]

HKDs step down the air on Stage 3 and 4 to about 20cfm. Logics stay at 12 to 18 depending on the nozzle configuration. Limited air capacity is really only an issue in the early season marginal temps. Mostly just November and a few weeks in December. Once temps drop below 20 or so the system becomes water dominant. That's when air/water ratio flips and the supply of water becomes the driver. and the quality of snow gets better.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, water is the main problem. The watershed baseflow essentially dries up as winter temps arrive. Here's a fun piece of data. If you watch (online) the USGS gauge down in Moretown when the flow rate drops below 125cfs it's below the February Mean Flow and therefore SB cannot withdraw from the river. When that happens only what's in the pond that can be used. There is only a few days of storage. Thus, the need for more storage.

Ok but if early season marginal temps air is an issue wouldn’t it behoove them to have a few of those fan guns to blast the base and maximize the inputs?

 

[tumbler]

Or rent some diesel portable air compressors.

 

[Newpylong]

HKDs step down the air on Stage 3 and 4 to about 20cfm. Logics stay at 12 to 18 depending on the nozzle configuration. Limited air capacity is really only an issue in the early season marginal temps. Mostly just November and a few weeks in December. Once temps drop below 20 or so the system becomes water dominant. That's when air/water ratio flips and the supply of water becomes the driver. and the quality of snow gets better.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, water is the main problem. The watershed baseflow essentially dries up as winter temps arrive. Here's a fun piece of data. If you watch (online) the USGS gauge down in Moretown when the flow rate drops below 125cfs it's below the February Mean Flow and therefore SB cannot withdraw from the river. When that happens only what's in the pond that can be used. There is only a few days of storage. Thus, the need for more storage.

This is the issue I was pointing out. If the Impulses are stepping down to 20 CFM already on 3/4, that is why you guys are making spooge and taking a week to open a trail. The air compression calculations I provided are or equipment built to what is typically shipped to customers. If you want to be able to convert any meaningful amount of water, they need to be valved higher, especially given the wide hydrant density.

I have attached my Impulse flow chart for comparison. These are R5s, but as you can tell, there is more air utilization, and more water conversion in the middle of the curve. We were able to move 31 GPM using 66 CFM at a 20 degree WB per gun.

You can't size your air compression on an ideal wet bulb in late December, and you can't be nozzled/valved for that either. Have to be able to burst in marginal. It is mindboggling that 4100 CFM seems to be acceptable to management for a hill with as much snowmaking acreage as Lincoln. The perceived snowmaking complaints (speed and quality) make far more sense now.

 

[fulgoreXC]

Hey, pretend some of us don’t know a centac from a bicycle pump, what Are we talking about ballpark in terms of money to get the compressor capacity they should have at LP?
fwiw-I have a compressor on board my pickup if they want to borrow whilst I ski?

Centac is a model from Ingersol Rand. It's capable of compressing air to 115psi at 4,100 cfm. The compressor in your truck is likely in the 125psi/8cfm. The costs pretty much scales the same. A new Centac will set you back $500k.

 

[HowieT2]

Centac is a model from Ingersol Rand. It's capable of compressing air to 115psi at 4,100 cfm. The compressor in your truck is likely in the 125psi/8cfm. The costs pretty much scales the same. A new Centac will set you back $500k.

Ok thats a significant cost. What would it cost to fix the cooling issue with the compressors they own or rent a compressor for a month?

 

[thetrailboss]

Or rent some diesel portable air compressors.

Which is what I think they used to do 20 years ago or so….

 

[tumbler]

Which is what I think they used to do 20 years ago or so….

Yes, about 10 of them above the vehicle maintenance shop from Nov-Jan. I think they were 1500-1800 CFM each. They were heavily used and made a big difference in the amount of guns they could run. Those were back in the old days of Ratniks and SR-7's. Make snowmaking loud again.

 

[Newpylong]

The 1800 CFM Atlas Copco rentals at Black from Milton CAT are like $10K per month. Plus a fuel pod if you don't have onsite storage. The cost of fuel is the big investment. But they come and fix them if they go down, and they come in good shape and are nice quiet Tier 4s. They do need DEF too which is a PITA.

You can also install 3 Phase quick disconnects at your outdoor pad too. Then you can rent either large electric Rotary Screws or diesels depending on what you pay for electricity or diesel in any given year. Ragged and Magic made this conversion. I had the option of leasing diesel or electric supplemental air at Whaleback.

 

[mikec142]

Centac is a model from Ingersol Rand. It's capable of compressing air to 115psi at 4,100 cfm. The compressor in your truck is likely in the 125psi/8cfm. The costs pretty much scales the same. A new Centac will set you back $500k.

Don't discount @HowieT2 truck compressor. Every little bit helps! Imagine if every parked car lent Sugarbush their air compressor while they were on the hill! We'd be in great shape.

Now we just have to figure out a system to get our air compressors back at the end of the day.

 

[HowieT2]

The 1800 CFM Atlas Copco rentals at Black from Milton CAT are like $10K per month. Plus a fuel pod if you don't have onsite storage. The cost of fuel is the big investment. But they come and fix them if they go down, and they come in good shape and are nice quiet Tier 4s. They do need DEF too which is a PITA.

You can also install 3 Phase quick disconnects at your outdoor pad too. Then you can rent either large electric Rotary Screws or diesels depending on what you pay for electricity or diesel in any given year. Ragged and Magic made this conversion. I had the option of leasing diesel or electric supplemental air at Whaleback.

but if they’re only replacing the compressors which are offline due to the cooling issue, the cost of fuel shouldn’t be too much different. If im understanding this correctly, for 10-20k they could be making more snow of a better quality. Thats pretty weak.
i still don’t understand why they wouldn’t throw some fan guns into the mix for the early season.

 

[Newpylong]

You need 3 Phase power all over the hill for fan guns to have any meaningful impact. The base areas are small footprint in the grand scheme of things. If you're going to go through the trouble to A) install power and B) purchase fans to the tune of $40K a piece, they might as well fix the glycol cooling system or replace all of those with another newer unit and be able to use the existing centralized air plant.

 

[cdskier]

but if they’re only replacing the compressors which are offline due to the cooling issue, the cost of fuel shouldn’t be too much different. If im understanding this correctly, for 10-20k they could be making more snow of a better quality. Thats pretty weak.
i still don’t understand why they wouldn’t throw some fan guns into the mix for the early season.

Better question...how long has the cooling on the other 2 compressors been broken and why has it not yet been fixed?