756*

[jack97]

Bonds lays off the juice and is still slamming them out of the park.

One reason for getting juiced is that you get the muscle mass and strength. Once you lay off the juice, what muscle mass and strength you have is still there, you just need to workout to maintain this strength level. That’s one of the major complaints in the NLF roids policy, Shawne Merriman (SD Chargers) bulked up big time in college and just got a 4 game suspension, however the strength enhancement he got out of it will last longer than the suspension period.

IMO, having the extra power is needed if you make your living hitting the long ball. Look at David Ortiz; some claim his leg injury is hurting his hr production this year. His long ball is just falling 30 to 50 feet short from going over the fence. However, he still has the motor skills to hit his normal batting average.

.....player's union couldn't get their you know what together to fix this thing before it became a huge issue.

Mike Greenwell is making some complaints, he claims he was not juicing it and lost the 1988 MVP to Canseco who was juicing it. You got it right, this problem was brewing for well over 15 years, the player unions and owners did nothing because they wanted the fan draw and hence the money.

 

[JimG.]

I'm sorry, I know it's a bad comparison, but I can't help get the image of Hitler riding through Paris out of my head when I think of Bonds getting his home run...it's hard to cheer someone who seems like such a thug.

Wow...that's a pretty extreme comparison. Adolf has his own class of evil and he inhabits that space alone in my book.

I don't really see Bonds as a thug either...I think of NFL players like Pacman Jones and Micheal Vick as thugs. Or alot of NBA players because they actually adopted that persona as a league image for a while.

Bonds is just totally obnoxious. He has a snotty, I don't care what you think attitude that rubs people the wrong way. He treats the press like a military threat. He acts like he doesn't care about the fans. And it's not just recently. ESPN had a timeline Bonds documentary on last night. They showed interviews from when he was a Pirate and he had the same snotty attitude.

Even if the 'roids helped him, he's a great hitter and he knows it, he's happy to tell everyone about it, and he expects recognition and respect. Alot of folks don't like that with good reason.

 

[drjeff]

Sports Illustrated this week had a great timeline of the "growth" of Bonds over his career.
His first year in the majors(1986) he was listed as a 6'1" 185lb 21 year old. His height and weight basically stayed the same through the 1996 season (up and down weight fluctuation of 5lbs) to the point where in 1996 he was listed at 6'1" and 190lbs as a 31 year old - Not bad at all, I know that I added more than 5lbs of weight between age 21 and 31!

Then, suddenly in the 1997, his weight shhots upto 206 and HIS HEIGHT INCREASES TO 6'2"! Who NATURALLY hits a little growth spurt at age 31???? He's upto 210 in '99, 228 by the '01 season and maintains that weight(and height) upto this year when he's listed at 238!

Interesting data

 

[JimG.]

Sports Illustrated this week had a great timeline of the "growth" of Bonds over his career.
His first year in the majors(1986) he was listed as a 6'1" 185lb 21 year old. His height and weight basically stayed the same through the 1996 season (up and down weight fluctuation of 5lbs) to the point where in 1996 he was listed at 6'1" and 190lbs as a 31 year old - Not bad at all, I know that I added more than 5lbs of weight between age 21 and 31!

Then, suddenly in the 1997, his weight shhots upto 206 and HIS HEIGHT INCREASES TO 6'2"! Who NATURALLY hits a little growth spurt at age 31???? He's upto 210 in '99, 228 by the '01 season and maintains that weight(and height) upto this year when he's listed at 238!

Interesting data

To be fair, you can gain 20 pounds of muscle in a year naturally. And going from 206 to 238 after you pass 40 isn't a stretch naturally either. Hell, I can gain 20 pounds in 6 months just from eating wrong.

The damning stat is the height...if that's a real height gain, you can do that only one way at the age of 31...HGH.

Disclaimer: I think he cheated too and I'm not defending him for that. But even if he did, I'll always admire that swing.

 

[jack97]

To be fair, you can gain 20 pounds of muscle in a year naturally.

Dunno, 20 pounds of added muscle at age 31 is unnatural or abnormal. I can understand 20 pound of muscle mass when you're in the late teens to early twenties when you have alot of natural growth hormones to get this muscle mass and strength. And maybe too much.... because those hormones make you (well at least me) do stupid and crazy things.

 

[JimG.]

Dunno, 20 pounds of added muscle at age 31 is unnatural or abnormal. I can understand 20 pound of muscle mass when you're in the late teens to early twenties when you have alot of natural growth hormones to get this muscle mass and strength. And maybe too much.... because those hormones make you (well at least me) do stupid and crazy things.

Improbable yes...but 31 is not THAT old. Again, I think he was a user, but it is possible to gain 20 pounds of muscle mass in a year naturally. What works against this explanation for Bonds is the fact that he was basically 6'1" and 190 for a decade, then suddenly gained the muscle. If he had been out of shape or even fat, I'd be more likely to say the above is what happened because muscle weighs more than fat, so a year of intense weight training could easily replace lighter fat with heavier muscle.

But obviously that's not the case here.

 

[tjf67]

I think everyone know he was on the juice. He looked like a body builder all ripped up. If you ever seen the all natural body building you can't getted ripped like that without drugs. Heck Arnold was doing drugs in the early 70's.

Safe to say that Bonds is the best baseball player of his era. Its a new world with new problems.
Bonds has always been a jerk in my book and it has nothing to do with steroids.

 

[JimG.]

If you ever seen the all natural body building you can't getted ripped like that without drugs.

Very true...natural body builders are leaner and not as ripped. A much sleeker look.

Bonds looks like a wrecking ball.

 

[jack97]

... so a year of intense weight training could easily replace lighter fat with heavier muscle.

Not to be argumentative... I agree most athlete get steady muscle mass. However, with baseball players, during the season, they spend more time in the park, if not traveling. In the off season, they play winter ball just to keep the motors skills and the techniques sharp. Usually, that is the time to hone in on improving their techniques. Finding more or any time time to get into an intense weight training program in their busy schedule just raises the red flag.


BTW, my nephew is getting coached by an american legion manager, he said that there are with more indoor facilities with batting cages and indoor fields being built and operated in the Northeast. So local young players can work on their game year round. It's taking away some of the regional advantages that west coast and southern kids have enjoyed for decades. That's why some northeast college teams are competitive in the college world series.

 

[JimG.]

Not to be argumentative...

Hey, this is what I come here for.

I'm not defending Bonds...it's obvious he's a user.

I think the worst effect of his legacy will be the suspicion that will swirl anytime an athlete does something extraordinary or record breaking. It's already like that now. And that's very unfair to the players who are clean.

I just wish those players would break free from the MLBPA tyranny and speak up. They've been muzzled. MLB is allowing it's integrity to be trashed and I don't understand that at all.

 

[riverc0il]

IMO, having the extra power is needed if you make your living hitting the long ball.

Lots of people hit a lot of long balls long before this record fell. There are other issues at work. What amazes me is how so many of these long ball records took so long to fall and only were able to be over taken because of the juice. Bonds joins McGuire and Sosa as being phenomenally great hitters but perhaps needing that extra juice to make the record books. What I want to know is if you need that extra power to make a living hitting the long ball, what did all these record holders do before the juice?

 

[jack97]

What I want to know is if you need that extra power to make a living hitting the long ball, what did all these record holders do before the juice?

They used whatever natural talent they had, that in itself makes their accomplishments even more special. Look up the stats for Aaron and Mays, both were productive players for over twenty years (or close to it). And yes, they played in an era where players had longevity, were in better condition and watch what they ate. They made enough salary to improve and keep their skills up year round.

Then you have a case like Ruth, can you imagine what he would have done if he kept himself in good shape. But then he played in an era where he didn’t bat against the best the country had to offer. Meaning the Negro League, even if the best black pitchers could not dominate, they would have least raise the talent pool so he would have to face more good pitching thru out his career. Some have made the argument that baseball was watered downed during that era, it still doesn't take away from his accomplishments during this time.

 

[FRITOLAYGUY]

Ya know most people ripped Canseco when his book came out about the people in it using steriods and what not, i dont care if the guy did , which he did and made money from a book which he also did, the people he did name were dead on, i give the guy alot of credit for lashing out on some people when most are afraid too because they dont wanna upset anyone if they worked in the game again after they retire.

 

[FRITOLAYGUY]

This just makes me appreciate hitting in 56 consecutive games more, steriods wont help you get base knocks, just maybe 10feet more for home runs, i dont think we will see that record broken in our lifetimes.

 

[threecy]

Wow...that's a pretty extreme comparison. Adolf has his own class of evil and he inhabits that space alone in my book.

I don't really see Bonds as a thug either...I think of NFL players like Pacman Jones and Micheal Vick as thugs. Or alot of NBA players because they actually adopted that persona as a league image for a while.

Bonds is just totally obnoxious. He has a snotty, I don't care what you think attitude that rubs people the wrong way. He treats the press like a military threat. He acts like he doesn't care about the fans. And it's not just recently. ESPN had a timeline Bonds documentary on last night. They showed interviews from when he was a Pirate and he had the same snotty attitude.

Even if the 'roids helped him, he's a great hitter and he knows it, he's happy to tell everyone about it, and he expects recognition and respect. Alot of folks don't like that with good reason.

Sorry, my bad comparison was a bit confusing - I wasn't saying Bonds is a thug like Hitler, rather I was comparing him celebrating to the clips of Hitler parading through Paris.

I wish Ted Williams had been able to play more - he was a much better hitter than Bonds could ever dream of being - and without any whispers of juicing.

 

[JimG.]

Sorry, my bad comparison was a bit confusing - I wasn't saying Bonds is a thug like Hitler, rather I was comparing him celebrating to the clips of Hitler parading through Paris.

I wish Ted Williams had been able to play more - he was a much better hitter than Bonds could ever dream of being - and without any whispers of juicing.

Figured you would address this one sooner or later. And now I see what you were driving at.

I made a bit of a faux pas too...Adolf doesn't live in his world of evil alone. He has alot of company like Joseph Stalin, Mussolini, and quite a few current bad guys I won't list.

One guy who might wind up there is Michael Vick. But not Bonds.

 

[marcski]

I think lots of things have come to play with regard to why so many of these records weren't and haven't been broken in hte recent past, besides the "juiced" home run records of the last decade.

Two of the biggest: 1) Relief pitchers; and 2) Total pitch count "limits" for starters.

Both of these have essentially changed the stats of the game. Relief pitchers coming in earlier in the games, so batters are now faced with having to go against better, stronger arms deeper in the game, keeping them at bay. (conversely, this may also have killed the 300 game winners for starting pitchers).

 

[Rushski]

I was personally more focused on Glavine hitting and surpassing 300...

Though I agree w/some of the posts talking about quality of pitchers NOW.

 

[threecy]

I think lots of things have come to play with regard to why so many of these records weren't and haven't been broken in hte recent past, besides the "juiced" home run records of the last decade.

Two of the biggest: 1) Relief pitchers; and 2) Total pitch count "limits" for starters.

Both of these have essentially changed the stats of the game. Relief pitchers coming in earlier in the games, so batters are now faced with having to go against better, stronger arms deeper in the game, keeping them at bay. (conversely, this may also have killed the 300 game winners for starting pitchers).

I think advanced scouting is often overlooked. A good hitter can hit just about anything, whereas a good pitcher is still hittable when there is tape/charts of his stuff.

A guy like Wily Mo Pena probably would have been an All Star by now, 50 years ago. Nowadays though, it doesn't take much scouting at all to figure out the guy can't hit much that doesn't rhyme with @ssball. A hitter can study tapes of a pitcher and know with good confidence what his pitchers look like out of his hand and when he throws them. 50 years ago, a 90 mph fastball with strike-control was good enough to be an All Star.

I think guys tend to spend more time in the minors nowadays than 50 years ago also - sometimes all it takes is a few years out of the pre-prime age that makes the difference in making a career milestone. Look at a guy like Youkilis - he probably could have been seeing significant major league playing time for the past 6 seasons instead of 2. Some of ths has to do with the unqiueness of the current Red Sox organization, but it is becoming the norm around baseball, however.

 

[marcski]

I think advanced scouting is often overlooked. A good hitter can hit just about anything, whereas a good pitcher is still hittable when there is tape/charts of his stuff.

A guy like Wily Mo Pena probably would have been an All Star by now, 50 years ago. Nowadays though, it doesn't take much scouting at all to figure out the guy can't hit much that doesn't rhyme with @ssball. A hitter can study tapes of a pitcher and know with good confidence what his pitchers look like out of his hand and when he throws them. 50 years ago, a 90 mph fastball with strike-control was good enough to be an All Star.

I think guys tend to spend more time in the minors nowadays than 50 years ago also - sometimes all it takes is a few years out of the pre-prime age that makes the difference in making a career milestone. Look at a guy like Youkilis - he probably could have been seeing significant major league playing time for the past 6 seasons instead of 2. Some of ths has to do with the unqiueness of the current Red Sox organization, but it is becoming the norm around baseball, however.

Scouting goes both ways. A pitcher has info on what hitters like...and of course try to stay away from that and attack his weaknesses. And I think when a good pitcher has his stuff and is on....he's going to be close to unhittable.... even though the batters certainly got scouting reports on what the pitcher can do and what his best stuff is etc.

But I do generally agree with you that scouting (and minor leagues) have also played and will play a part.