Saab Unveils Concept Crossover Vehicle

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

The Edge that you atre comparing to the Outback. Is it the FWD or the AWD? AWD takes a big chunk out of MPG.

• Ford Edge 2WD: 16 city/24 highway
• Ford Edge AWD: 17 city/24 highway (yes, BETTER mileage with AWD (don't ask me why))
• Subaru Outback AWD: 19 (or 20 for automatic) city/26 highway

So, Subaru has a slight advantage in the mileage department, but it's pretty negligible, IMO, when you consider that the Edge has more cargo volume, space and towing capacity.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

GM owned 50% of Subaru at one time. While it's true GM sold its stake recently, I believe they still have some joint ventures running, and I'd be very surprised if they didn't maintain some sort of relationship.

Actually, GM was a 20% minority shareholder from 1999 until 2005, when they sold 8.7% to Toyota and sold the rest on the open market.

There might be some remaing JVs between the companies, but I know of nothing as big as platform or engine sharing.

 

[Marc]

• Ford Edge 2WD: 16 city/24 highway
• Ford Edge AWD: 17 city/24 highway (yes, BETTER mileage with AWD (don't ask me why))
• Subaru Outback AWD: 19 (or 20 for automatic) city/26 highway

So, Subaru has a slight advantage in the mileage department, but it's pretty negligible, IMO, when you consider that the Edge has more cargo volume, space and towing capacity.

Where did those numbers come from? They don't sound very trust worthy. If the Ford AWD is just the 2WD with two more differentials, and extra driveshaft, two more half shafts, drive hubs, CV joints, etc etc, like most cross over vehicles that size are, it would be physically impossible to yield higher gas mileage from it under like test conditions.

The other thing I see wrong is there's no good reason the automatic Subie should have better gas mileage than the stick. What engine is that for, btw, and what engines are offered in the Outbacks these days?

I get about 27 mpg average on my '99 2.5L 4 cyl Outback (5 spd) with 128k miles on the it.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Where did those numbers come from? They don't sound very trust worthy. If the Ford AWD is just the 2WD with two more differentials, and extra driveshaft, two more half shafts, drive hubs, CV joints, etc etc, like most cross over vehicles that size are, it would be physically impossible to yield higher gas mileage from it under like test conditions.

The other thing I see wrong is there's no good reason the automatic Subie should have better gas mileage than the stick. What engine is that for, btw, and what engines are offered in the Outbacks these days?

I get about 27 mpg average on my '99 2.5L 4 cyl Outback (5 spd) with 128k miles on the it.

These days, automatics can be more fuel efficient than manual transmissions. The technology has gotten better.

At any rate, the numbers are real:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/crossovers/edge/compare/details/?vehicles=23082|20069|22235|22423

http://www.subaru.com/shop/specifications.jsp?model=OUTBACK&trim=OUTBACK&category=PERFORMANCE

 

[Marc]

I'm not questioning their reality, I'm questioning their validity.

And as long as an automatic transmission still has a power sapping torque converter and fewer gears than it's manual counterpart (which I'm guessing the Subaru does) you will have a hard time convincing me the automatic can be more fuel efficient.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

I'm not questioning their reality, I'm questioning their validity.

And as long as an automatic transmission still has a power sapping torque converter and fewer gears than it's manual counterpart (which I'm guessing the Subaru does) you will have a hard time convincing me the automatic can be more fuel efficient.

It's the manufacturer's data calculated pursuant to EPA guidelines. You can't get much more valid than that, which is why I included those links.

If what you're trying to say is that everyday driving leads to different results, I think you have even less ground to stand on. In everyday situations a manual is unlikely to provide much difference in fuel economy, since maximum efficiency only occurs if shifts take place at precise engine rpms, which is difficult to do (especially in city driving).

 

[Marc]

You can get more valid than that... by driving the car and making your own observations. Unfortunately you are correct, for comparison sake, the EPA estimate is the best we have, despite the flaws (for instance, the highway rating test only goes to 60 mph, which would tend to favor the vehicle with more windage, as the gap will widen as speeds increase).

I'd also disagree that driving a standard for maximum fuel economy is as difficult as you make it sound. For one, while the computer in an AT may be able to send the signal to shift at a precise rpm, signaling the transmission to shift and the transmission actually shifting are two different things, and the gap widens as the hydraulic fluid gets old and dirty and the valves and clutches wear.

The other two things you over look is 1) the fact that a driver can observe changes in the road ahead while a car cannot (yet), giving the driver of the MT the edge, and 2) while idling at a stop, the engine spinning the AT has to spin the rotor around in the torque converter and overcome the fluid resistance if it is left in Drive (which a significant portion of the population does) while the MT car, if the clutch is disengaged, only must overcome the resistance of the bearing on the flywheel.

In any case, I do concede the EPA is the best we have for comparison, although that does not make it accurate, nor does it remove the skepticism I have for reasons I've stated.

 

[riverc0il]

A lot of car specs are reporting automatics getting better gas mileage than manuals these days. But I am sure the MPG numbers are simply estimates based on the average driver in average conditions. Sometimes I beat my car's MPG and sometimes I am under but usually I am right around the manufacturers specs. Varies depending on how drivers work their cars but as an average, computers are catching up to your average stick shifter if the numbers are to be believed.

 

[ctenidae]

Standards are more fun, though.

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Standards are more fun, though.

True, unless you drive a lot in traffic or have to regularly parallel park on hilly streets....

 

[layla17]

I agree ComeBack. I prefer driving manual, but the hills and thick traffic don't make it a wise choice, so I have an automatic.

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

Is SUBARU the offical car of Vermont???? I was up at Smuggs for the past 5 days and was blown away by the amount of SUBARUs up there...followed by Audi and Volvos (all with VT Plates) I just sold our Nissan Armada SUV and got the 2008 Volvo XC70 ....our mileage was not great, granted we were fully loaded with a huge cooler of food, ski bags, clothes bags, a Thule Ascent 1600 Cargo box up top....the car only has 400 miles on it when we began the trip...we averaged 17.6 mpg at appx 68mph on cruise control (appx 6 hrs driving Long Island to Smuggs) I am hoping this will improve esp when i take the box off (which i do unless we need it)

The car was a pleasure to drive, comfy seats, great controls, 8.5 in of ground clearance...only take about $50 to fill rather than $85!!

 

[campgottagopee]

There was nothing veiled meant about that suggestion, for the record It was a broad generalization; however, and certainly not true of all buyers. Subarus are indeed image conscious vehicles for many. But they do have substantial performance benefits over SUVs with space and ground clearance being the only two comparative draw backs that instantly come to mind. Just seeing what buyers thought was the big bonus of a crossover versus a AWD wagon (27MPG on the Legacy with AWD, IIRC).

Actually the Outback has 8.40 inches of ground clearance which is very competetive with most SUV's...ie the Ford Explorer has 8.2

 

[campgottagopee]

• Ford Edge 2WD: 16 city/24 highway
• Ford Edge AWD: 17 city/24 highway (yes, BETTER mileage with AWD (don't ask me why))
• Subaru Outback AWD: 19 (or 20 for automatic) city/26 highway

So, Subaru has a slight advantage in the mileage department, but it's pretty negligible, IMO, when you consider that the Edge has more cargo volume, space and towing capacity.

Your comparing apples and oranges with the Outback vs. the Edge, but if you want to we can. Outback cargo volume=33.50, Edge=32.10...towing capacity Outback=2700, Edge=3500.....payload Outback=1085, Edge=1077. Just sayin'

 

[campgottagopee]

Is SUBARU the offical car of Vermont???? I was up at Smuggs for the past 5 days and was blown away by the amount of SUBARUs up there...followed by Audi and Volvos (all with VT Plates) I just sold our Nissan Armada SUV and got the 2008 Volvo XC70 ....our mileage was not great, granted we were fully loaded with a huge cooler of food, ski bags, clothes bags, a Thule Ascent 1600 Cargo box up top....the car only has 400 miles on it when we began the trip...we averaged 17.6 mpg at appx 68mph on cruise control (appx 6 hrs driving Long Island to Smuggs) I am hoping this will improve esp when i take the box off (which i do unless we need it)

The car was a pleasure to drive, comfy seats, great controls, 8.5 in of ground clearance...only take about $50 to fill rather than $85!!

Actually Subie is the official car for NYS!!!! The largest Subaru dealership in the U.S. is located in Victor NY

 

[campgottagopee]

Standards are more fun, though.

True, but that's why most automatics are coming with "sport shift" as standard equiptment.

 

[Marc]

True, but that's why most automatics are coming with "sport shift" as standard equiptment.

It's still an automatic transmission with a planetary gearset and a torque converter. Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

 

[campgottagopee]

It's still an automatic transmission with a planetary gearset and a torque converter. Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

That, and you can't pollish a terd either.

 

[bvibert]

It's still an automatic transmission with a planetary gearset and a torque converter. Put lipstick on a pig and it's still a pig.

Yes, but a sexy pig...

Did I really just type that?

I agree, manual transmission driver here. When I was buying my VW I was having trouble finding a wagon with stick. People would say tell me all the time that I should just get the auto (tiptronic or whatever it is), "you can shift it just like a manual". Uh no, it's NOT just like a manual. It's about more just than the efficiency or the ability to select which gear I want for me...

 

[Paul]

You know you want one...