Skiing in May: Would you pay a premium for it?

[Highway Star]

First, at a total cost of 2 million dollars per machine... That there would require 67,000 visits at a 35$ profit (not counting energy usage, etc). Second, it can *produce* snow. Actually, an impressive amount of it. But *distributing* the snow is the issue. Suppose you could have a groomer just plowing it around.

Yep. About $2 million per unit plus a large chiller (heat exchanger) for the source water. And it should be inside a building...about 50ft tall iirc....maybe partally underground. So for 2 units (VIM 850), a chiller, building, labor and transport....$6-8M?

http://www.ide-tech.com/dwlfls/IDE Snowmaker Product Info (English)-April 2008.pdf

Plus a quad chair on Downdraft to the tune of $1M.

Ball park it at 1000 KW for the whole system as described above with two VIM 850's (including pumping costs), so that's 24,000 KWH per day, or very roughly $2400 per day. Steep? No, not at all when you consider the output is 3 acre ft per day of dense spring snow off of two units. $800 per acre foot is pretty cheap for snowmaking, really.

Upper-Middle Cascade and Downdraft are roughly 1,800 ft long, and roughly 300 ft wide combined. That's roughly 12 acres. So, they could put down 3 inches of snow per day across both those trails, or get one 100ft wide trail open in about two days. Certainly enough to maintain a base throughout the summer, epecially with proper drainage and covering.

A quad chair on those two trails could probably support about 800 people at once, and 2,000 total skier visits throughout the day. Figure.....4,000 skier visits on a 3 day weekend with good weather. Assuming a $50 day ticket price, but an actual $35 ticket yield per skier visit, they would pull in $140,000 on tickets alone. Add increased food/bev/misc and you're probably around $200,000 in revenue per weekend. Also consider renting to race groups/camps or hosting camps midweek, could probably bring in another $50,000+ per week.

So, lets call it $250,000 in additional revenue per week. From early May to late October, or roughly 25 weeks. Adjusting for some bad weather.....maybe $5 million in revenue in those 6 months? Roughly 200,000+ skier visits....?

Costs: Electric, roughly $200k to run the snowmaker for 80 days, producing a total of 20 ft of snow on 12 acre ft. Labor....? The other lift? Etc? K-1 is already running in the summer, there is already staff on the mountain, lodges are open...?

Anybody want to make a legit cost analysis? IMHO, it's something they could make money at and cover the costs of the equipment in a reasonable time.

 

[tcharron]

Yep. About $2 million per unit plus a large chiller (heat exchanger) for the source water. And it should be inside a building...about 50ft tall iirc....maybe partally underground. So for 2 units (VIM 850), a chiller, building, labor and transport....$6-8M?

http://www.ide-tech.com/dwlfls/IDE Snowmaker Product Info (English)-April 2008.pdf

Plus a quad chair on Downdraft to the tune of $1M.

Ball park it at 1000 KW for the whole system as described above with two VIM 850's (including pumping costs), so that's 24,000 KWH per day, or very roughly $2400 per day. Steep? No, not at all when you consider the output is 3 acre ft per day of dense spring snow off of two units. $800 per acre foot is pretty cheap for snowmaking, really.

Upper-Middle Cascade and Downdraft are roughly 1,800 ft long, and roughly 300 ft wide combined. That's roughly 12 acres. So, they could put down 3 inches of snow per day across both those trails, or get one 100ft wide trail open in about two days. Certainly enough to maintain a base throughout the summer, epecially with proper drainage and covering.

A quad chair on those two trails could probably support about 800 people at once, and 2,000 total skier visits throughout the day. Figure.....4,000 skier visits on a 3 day weekend with good weather. Assuming a $50 day ticket price, but an actual $35 ticket yield per skier visit, they would pull in $140,000 on tickets alone. Add increased food/bev/misc and you're probably around $200,000 in revenue per weekend. Also consider renting to race groups/camps or hosting camps midweek, could probably bring in another $50,000+ per week.

So, lets call it $250,000 in additional revenue per week. From early May to late October, or roughly 25 weeks. Adjusting for some bad weather.....maybe $5 million in revenue in those 6 months?

Costs: Electric, roughly $200k to run the snowmaker for 80 days, producing a total of 20 ft of snow on 12 acre ft. Labor....? The other lift? Etc? K-1 is already running in the summer, there is already staff on the mountain, lodges are open...?

Anybody want to make a legit cost analysis? IMHO, it's something they could make money at and cover the costs of the equipment in a reasonable time.

Your ballpark numbers work out, unless you take into consideration 3 inches per day of cover. In the summer time, your going to lose 6+ inches per day easy. But it is conjecture on my part.

So, go get a tie on, and go out and pitch the idea. :-D

 

[Highway Star]

Your ballpark numbers work out, unless you take into consideration 3 inches per day of cover. In the summer time, your going to lose 6+ inches per day easy. But it is conjecture on my part.

So, go get a tie on, and go out and pitch the idea. :-D

That's where the drainage, insulation and tarps/blankets come in. Plus, have you ever been up on Killington in the summer? At 3500ft+, it rarely gets above 70F, and spends alot of time in the 50's and 60's, and is cold at night.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

or you could get ten thousand helicopters all together at once and hoist up xanadu, bring it up to killington and drop it down on cascade :lol:

Keep dreaming

lmbfao!!!!

 

[mondeo]

Sunlight alone would kill off probably 10% of new snow:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/45985-what-enemies-snow-2.html#post373926 (plus some more conversions, comes to about 450,000 lbs/day if you assume 60% reflectivity for the snow)

But then, assume 55°F and 10mph wind as a constant, an you're talking about 7050 tons of snow/day melted through convection, roughly, meaning with convection and sunlight (no rain) you'd need 7.5 machines to keep up. Basically a foot/day lost. Seems a little fast, so feel free to check my math. Probably would help if I had had my own heat transfer book in college rather than borrowed. Plus I don't feel like using ANSYS on this one, which would be my normal path of least resistance.

Also at issue is that the IDE systems are the most cost effective means of extending the season. The existing snowmaking capacity is 720,000 gal/hr, equal to about 70 of the VIM850s. So you can stockpile in a week what two of the VIM850s can do over 6 months.

The biggest issue is 2000 tickets per day. If Killington was open until Memorial Day, I'd probably be up there 3 out of 4 weekends in May. July 4, throw a couple more weekends in for June. Another weekend each in July and August, maybe in September and October just to keep things fresh. That's from the mindset of a passholder. If I had to pay an extra $70/weekend? I probably wouldn't go up at all, maybe a couple times/summer. The overwhelming majority of skiers have better things to do in the summer than spend a weekend skiing a single run for a total cost of $200/weekend, throsing in lodging, gas, food, etc. The only reason Xanadu may work is because it's close to several million people, and can attract beginners through die hards looking for a fix. All-year at Killington would be more expensive to operate and wouldn't draw as many people.

 

[Highway Star]

Sunlight alone would kill off probably 10% of new snow:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/45985-what-enemies-snow-2.html#post373926 (plus some more conversions, comes to about 450,000 lbs/day if you assume 60% reflectivity for the snow)

But then, assume 55°F and 10mph wind as a constant, an you're talking about 7050 tons of snow/day melted through convection, roughly, meaning with convection and sunlight (no rain) you'd need 7.5 machines to keep up. Basically a foot/day lost. Seems a little fast, so feel free to check my math. Probably would help if I had had my own heat transfer book in college rather than borrowed. Plus I don't feel like using ANSYS on this one, which would be my normal path of least resistance.

Please back up your statements with some more detailed calculations....

 

[mondeo]

Please back up your statements with some more detailed calculations....

Don't make me pull out ANSYS...

 

[mondeo]

Don't make me pull out ANSYS...

Actually, Fluent would be the way to go on this one. I'd be assuming an isothermal plate anyways.

Which is good, because I know Fluent a lot better than ANSYS. Or I could use the opportunity to get familiar with OpenFOAM or TetrUSS.

 

[tcharron]

That's where the drainage, insulation and tarps/blankets come in. Plus, have you ever been up on Killington in the summer? At 3500ft+, it rarely gets above 70F, and spends alot of time in the 50's and 60's, and is cold at night.

Meh, typical temp gradiants are about 2 degrees C per 1000" vertical. So yea, daytime temps in the low mid 70's worst case. However, 2/3rds of the way up, it goes to upper 70's-80s, and 1/3 of the way up, mid to upper 80s.

 

[Highway Star]

Actually, Fluent would be the way to go on this one. I'd be assuming an isothermal plate anyways.

Which is good, because I know Fluent a lot better than ANSYS. Or I could use the opportunity to get familiar with OpenFOAM or TetrUSS.

I'm not impressed. Just make the calculation by hand.

12 acres

10ft of ice @ 32F

55F

10 mph wind

 

[Highway Star]

Meh, typical temp gradiants are about 2 degrees C per 1000" vertical. So yea, daytime temps in the low mid 70's worst case. However, 2/3rds of the way up, it goes to upper 70's-80s, and 1/3 of the way up, mid to upper 80s.

I thought it was more like 4F per 1000ft....

 

[mondeo]

I thought it was more like 4F per 1000ft....

2°C = 3.6°F

International standard atmosphere is 59°F at sea level, 47°F at 3500 feet.

I'm not impressed. Just make the calculation by hand.

12 acres

10ft of ice @ 32F

55F

10 mph wind

As I mentioned, I borrowed the heat transfer book in college, so I don't have one now. I took the course about 4 years ago and basically faked my way through it, so I'm a bit rusty. My weakest subject in college. And there isn't much point in doing math when computers are so much better at it. Anything that can't be done on a scientific calculator and I open up MATLAB.

Where's Austin? I can handle the heat transfer from the wind, I need him on the ground.

 

[2knees]

holy crap, its a math-off!

 

[Greg]

holy crap, its a math-off!

Stay out of it. You simply will never understand the social dynamic of this thread.

 

[Grassi21]

holy crap, its a math-off!

i stink at math. but i sure do know my fractions; 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and my favorite 1.

 

[jack97]

wtf???? I hang out in this place just avoid matlab. Truth be told, I dread the day when I have to work with simulink but thats another thread.

With the season ending, I wish I can find places to do this. Check out the mini rollers, I really need work on my absorptions

 

[RootDKJ]

wtf???? I hang out in this place just avoid matlab. Truth be told, I dread the day when I have to work with simulink but thats another thread.

With the season ending, I wish I can find places to do this. Check out the mini rollers, I really need work on my absorptions

No helmet??? :smash:

 

[jack97]

No helmet??? :smash:

yeah, so true.....

well this vid show a more responsible group of skiers...... guess we might come to this due to global warming :smash:

 

[RootDKJ]

yeah, so true.....

well this vid show a more responsible group of skiers...... guess we might come to this due to global warming :smash:

HA Ha ha. Could you really see member of the Clits using poles that long?:flame:

 

[tcharron]

Please back up your statements with some more detailed calculations....

First off, the person who really just eyeballs his own numbers REEEEAAAAALLLLY can't make a counter argument of show me detailed calculations.

Second, the general numbers. During the late spring/summer/early fall, the sun puts out roughly 350 watts of constant energy on each square meter. In the winter, there are two factors which change this, making it's impact much less. First, in winter, on a good day you'll get like 200 watts per square meter. Now for the killer. In the winter, the snow it's hasn't started melting much. Solid, non melting snow will reflect back over 90%. However, this is the killer, snow that has already STARTED to melt, (aka, has some wetness to it) will only reflect back 50%.

Maybe someone has time to do the real numbers out, but at a MINIMUM, I'd say 6" of melt per day is reasonable, if you took precautions to minimize the melt. 12" is a plausible number, without needing to do specific math.