Magic Mountain ...

[MommaBear]

I don't think we need another Stratton, Okemo or Mount Snow type place. I, personally, enjoyed Magic this year because it WASN'T like those mountains. Why is it so bad to be different from the rest? Why does everything have to be posh and polished to appeal to the masses? I understand you need more skier visits to bring in the funds, but some of us out here aren't impressed with the things that are supposed to appeal to the masses. So of us even find some of it totally annoying - like conveyor belts to bring you to the chair. I'd much rather have the guy at Magic with his corny jokes.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Beetlenut]

Most people that go to magic, go there for one thing, the terrain. Most of those people think the lodge is fine, me included, and the bar is great after skiing. If they needed to do one thing now, IMO it would be finish the snowmaking tie-in to the ponds they were building. A good coating of early season base would do Magic wonders to get the season going. I don't even mind the slow lift, as long as it goes to the top without breaking down! I've already purchased tickets for this coming season, so I hope they open. If not, then I just made a donation to them. It's old school, that's it's appeal.

 

[bvibert]

I don't think we need another Stratton, Okemo or Mount Snow type place. I, personally, enjoyed Magic this year because it WASN'T like those mountains. Why is it so bad to be different from the rest? Why does everything have to be posh and polished to appeal to the masses? I understand you need more skier visits to bring in the funds, but some of us out here aren't impressed with the things that are supposed to appeal to the masses. So of us even find some of it totally annoying - like conveyor belts to bring you to the chair. I'd much rather have the guy at Magic with his corny jokes.

Just my 2 cents.

Exactly! Add my 2 cents to that sentiment.

 

[thetrailboss]

I don't think we need another Stratton, Okemo or Mount Snow type place. I, personally, enjoyed Magic this year because it WASN'T like those mountains. Why is it so bad to be different from the rest? Why does everything have to be posh and polished to appeal to the masses? I understand you need more skier visits to bring in the funds, but some of us out here aren't impressed with the things that are supposed to appeal to the masses. So of us even find some of it totally annoying - like conveyor belts to bring you to the chair. I'd much rather have the guy at Magic with his corny jokes.

Just my 2 cents.

That's not what I'm saying.

It is a balance though. Magic, with 16,000 skier visits, can't survive and I think they know that. Hell,. the Middlebury College Snowbowl has 50-60,000 visits a year.

What they need to focus on is having reliable operations and a consistent product. There have been many times where they just weren't open (lift problems, conditions, etc)>

And as to niche, it is cool but it just seems that if people want that kind of terrain they go to MRG where the snow is more reliable.

But then again, a few years back folks thought that Saddleback was done and the new owners have really made that place into something!

 

[deadheadskier]

Saddleback should be the model, not Mad River Glen. Appeal to the expert, but also the family looking for something laid back, yet quality and affordable. I see no reason why Magic can't do 100K visits a year and be sustainable.

Honestly, I think their BIGGEST problem is marketing. Yes the mountain has it's issues, but how many people even know about the place anymore? Outside of basic maintenance to keep the place going, spend HUGE on marketing. Hell, offer and market the hell out of a free ski day each month for a different state; Mass, NH, VT, CT, NY, especially on a Friday if there are five friday's that month. You get lucky and a few thousand people show up for a powder day who have never been there before, Saturday will crank at full price provided it's reasonable.

If possible, I would defer any major capital expenditures for marketing investment for at least a couple of years. Get yourself back on the radar, then invest in a few improvements. With the natural terrain it has in such close proximity to Boston and Albany, there's no reason it can't do 100K visits.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would also do whatever I could to get the Maple Valley skiers back....the locals. DIRT cheap high school passes. It was 15 years ago, but Okemo was only $200 a year for me in HS.

 

[riverc0il]

The lodge has been substantially improved in recent years. I actually rate it very highly for a usable lodge. It has everything a lodge needs to have. With the bar, new benches, improved bath rooms, and all the other improvements, I would rate it higher than Burke's Mid-Burke and Black NH, to compare with other mid-sized lesser known areas. It has one of the best ski area facing decks around for chilling out with an after ski beverage. Rough around the edges and not built for the all services in one family crowd but great for all but the full service needing skier or rider family.

I'm trying to stay positive but am a bit concerned. Hard for me to understand why so many people verbally committed & are now taking their time writing checks.

I hate to be the nay sayer here, I LOVE Magic and want to see it open. But people verbally committed because they have heart. They are taking their time writing checks because they have an objective look at the situation. It is a extremely risky proposition to invest in Magic right now, especially at the price of $3000 per share. The ski area is unstable and lacks the needed capital to make critical long term investments. That whole 60/20/20 split on ownership would be tough to swallow as well, even with shareholders having a majority stake. Going coop should not be a decision of last resort but a decision in spirit of the mountain and its long term needs. This is too desperate to appear a wise financial investment. I suspect the folks who put their money with their mouth is on this deal are doing so with a lot of heart for the mountain, which I deeply respect as the mountain has long since captured my heart. But I don't think heart alone will save any mountain that close to ruin from financial failure... sucks as it may, Magic needs a corporate buyer, IMO, and this is a tough time to find one. Especially given how similar purchases have gone lately (e.g. Burke).

 

[bvibert]

If possible, I would defer any major capital expenditures for marketing investment for at least a couple of years. Get yourself back on the radar, then invest in a few improvements. With the natural terrain it has in such close proximity to Boston and Albany, there's no reason it can't do 100K visits.

I don't agree with that. The natural terrain is great, but they're too far south to rely on it. IMHO they need snowmaking upgrades to attract people to the groomers when the natural snow is lean. The do have some pretty nice cruiser trails and a groomer that can't be more than a couple years old, they just need better snowmaking to better utilize it.

That may not attract their core customers, but it should get more people to the mountain. I agree with making the place attractive to locals!

Marketing is definitely needed, but I don't think it should be put ahead of snowmaking improvements and making sure they have a reliable chair lift.

 

[riverc0il]

I think it comes back to the fact that Magic does not have consistent snow as Black does. Black is further north.

Magic has significantly more consistent snow than Black, IMO. Comparisons between the two mountains do not add up, IMO. Very different mountains, very different operations, very different target markets, significantly different vertical and pitch and terrain offerings and especially acreage. If Magic had good snow making and a beginner area, Magic would be superior in every way except for the Bromley like sunny exposure of Black but the trade off is worse snow preservation which enhances Magic's consistency. Though Black makes more snow. They have to. But they have half as much terrain to cover.

 

[riverc0il]

I don't agree with that. The natural terrain is great, but they're too far south to rely on it. IMHO they need snowmaking upgrades to attract people to the groomers when the natural snow is lean. The do have some pretty nice cruiser trails and a groomer that can't be more than a couple years old, they just need better snowmaking to better utilize it.

That may not attract their core customers, but it should get more people to the mountain. I agree with making the place attractive to locals!

Snow making would actually attract MORE core customers, not just visitors. How many times have we seen Magic struggling to barely get one or two runs open for the Christmas holiday or even open at all prior to the New Year? To hell with folks that want to take a ski weekend, that is not even going to attract people that like and enjoy Magic. At least if the major routes were covered the die hards might show up for a few groomer runs. They might sell more season passes too if people knew they would get four months or more from their pass instead of barely three. Snow making in today's market is an absolute must for all areas except MRG (bunny and the base area with one gun doesn't count).

 

[bvibert]

Snow making would actually attract MORE core customers, not just visitors. How many times have we seen Magic struggling to barely get one or two runs open for the Christmas holiday or even open at all prior to the New Year? To hell with folks that want to take a ski weekend, that is not even going to attract people that like and enjoy Magic. At least if the major routes were covered the die hards might show up for a few groomer runs. They might sell more season passes too if people knew they would get four months or more from their pass instead of barely three. Snow making in today's market is an absolute must for all areas except MRG (bunny and the base area with one gun doesn't count).

I guess that depends on how you define the core customer that they've been attracting. Having more snow making isn't likely to get me there more often, but then again I'm probably not their target. It will definitely help with season pass sales, which I'd imagine would be a huge boost.

Either way I think we both agree that better snow making capability is needed, regardless of the name you put on the people it'll attract, it'll get people there.

 

[riverc0il]

I should have been more clear. One too many beers tonight. It will attract far more non-core customers than core customers. But I think that the core customer can not be over looked in terms of putting in more days. Also, a natural snow trail with a foot of snow making base will be skiable after 6" of fresh but not 6" of fresh on grass (for mere mortals at least), so that is also a factor.

 

[marcski]

I love Magic.....skied there as a kid in the early 70's...My dad was there in the 60's.

Spending a lot of money on marketing only works if the product is good enough to have repeat customers.

Without a doubt to survive today in southern Vt. Magic must have more and better snowmaking period. They also need a lift that people aren't scared of because of things they heard. (A new/used summit lift would certainly help and, of course, a HSQ would be ideal in that regard). They also need a dedicated beginner area and lift.

Without those things I don't think they could even get locals and/or schools to come out on any regular basis to make the place profitable.

Snowmaking is the only logical starting point for investment. The lodge talk is a huge red herring. Give the people good snow and terrain....and a reliable way up...they will go.....regardless of the Lodge.

It is unfortunate and will be a great loss if Magic goes NELSAP. I'm keeping my fingers crossed...but Rivercoil made a great point about the Coop...being such a last ditch effort.

 

[bvibert]

Also, a natural snow trail with a foot of snow making base will be skiable after 6" of fresh but not 6" of fresh on grass (for mere mortals at least), so that is also a factor.

I've wondered about that, if the trails would lose some character by have a man made base. Probably not, but I'd hate for Magic to lose any of the good stuff that it has. I also wonder how many of their natural trails they could run snow making pipe up without ripping them up too much??

6" on grass isn't nearly as difficult as 6" on rocks and such.

 

[deadheadskier]

Snow making would actually attract MORE core customers, not just visitors. How many times have we seen Magic struggling to barely get one or two runs open for the Christmas holiday or even open at all prior to the New Year? To hell with folks that want to take a ski weekend, that is not even going to attract people that like and enjoy Magic. At least if the major routes were covered the die hards might show up for a few groomer runs. They might sell more season passes too if people knew they would get four months or more from their pass instead of barely three. Snow making in today's market is an absolute must for all areas except MRG (bunny and the base area with one gun doesn't count).

What is their current snow making capacity?

percentage of terrain covered? Gallons of water available?

While I agree that snow making is a must in today's market, there are areas with lesser terrain and lesser snow making doing more skier visits than Magic in worse locations. Black is the one example coming up frequently in this thread. Mount Abram I would think to be another and Magic has a major location advantage there. If those two areas have better snow making equipment and capacity, I would anticipate Magic to make up the difference in natural.

I skied Magic a fair amount in the late 80's and it was known then. It wasn't Okemo, Mount Snow or Stratton, but it was pretty much right there with Bromley. My family traveled over quite frequently from Okemo and while far from Okemo in terms of overall development, it had a buzz, especially with the Timerside offering. It has completely fallen off the map in the past 15 years and I think much of that is marketing.

An example in marketing would be the best restaurant in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. The Dunaway now is doing less than half the revenue it was doing only two years ago because of marketing even though the food is arguably better. New ownership gambled that word of mouth marketing would be enough and the place has tanked on that gamble.

I stand by my belief that marketing is where the money needs to go. Market 'cheap' for now and 'on the rise' for the future. Pretty much exactly what is working so well even in a down economy at Saddleback. The 'on the rise' stuff doesn't even need to be accurate. Saddleback seemingly changes their master plan each month.....BUT the moment they buy even a new snowmobile, they scream at the top of the lungs that they got it and how happy people are that they do.

 

[bvibert]

a HSQ would be ideal in that regard

I agree with many of your other points, but completely, absolutely disagree with the above statement. If a new lift is needed, which seems likely given the red chair's recent history, then a newer used fixed grip double or triple would fit the bill.

I would not, under any circumstances, put a HSQ in it's place if I had anything to do with it. IMNSHO

 

[Geoff]

...but Rivercoil made a great point about the Coop...being such a last ditch effort.

I'm not surprised that Magic is having difficulty selling their financial instrument. It in no way resembles the MRG co-op. At Mad River, everybody has an equal ownership stake and an equal vote in the meetings.

 

[Beetlenut]

A bigger issue is the water/Act 250 permitting. Lots of rumours were flying about increasing the ponds. I'm out of the loop at this point. I don't know what the status is.

They have access to plenty of water from Lowell Lake and the connectin is already in place

Revamping snowmaking and dedicating a budget to make early season snow are the 2 biggest items that need to be addressed.

I have been told they will have about the same capacity to make snow as last year which was far better than previous years. If all goes well for the following season they should have 4-5 times the available snowmaking.

http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php?cid=topic11816

According to Magic's web site, they have 70% snow making capacity.So that would imply that the pipe infrastructure is already there to lay down snow on the major runs and cruisers. The quotes above were from various threads over the last few years. So, did Magic ever get that snow making pond enlarged? Or increase their access to more snow making water? Or is it a case of money for fuel to run the generators to pump the water up the hill? Seems they were headed in the right direction and already had the necessary equipment to put down early season snow, but were lacking sufficient water to do so.

 

[marcski]

I agree with many of your other points, but completely, absolutely disagree with the above statement. If a new lift is needed, which seems likely given the red chair's recent history, then a newer used fixed grip double or triple would fit the bill.

I would not, under any circumstances, put a HSQ in it's place if I had anything to do with it. IMNSHO

Personally, I agree with you. I don't care that much to be honest about having HSQ's. And....considering the terrain at Magic...having a nice 15 mins rest on the lift is well-deserved. However, I do think that if you are trying to increase your skier base....and increase skier days to be profitable....in this day and age, a HSQ is a draw.

Either way...snowmaking by far No. 1 priority for Magic. Period.

 

[Sorcerer]

According to Magic's web site, they have 70% snow making capacity.So that would imply that the pipe infrastructure is already there to lay down snow on the major runs and cruisers. The quotes above were from various threads over the last few years. So, did Magic ever get that snow making pond enlarged? Or increase their access to more snow making water? Or is it a case of money for fuel to run the generators to pump the water up the hill? Seems they were headed in the right direction and already had the necessary equipment to put down early season snow, but were lacking sufficient water to do so.

Magic has snow making pipe that probably covers 70% of the mountain. Some of the pipe probably needs repair but they routinely make snow on the eastside (beginner/intermediate trails and Trick) and on Wizzard and Talisman on the westside (steep side). Sorcerer has some of the newest pipe on the mountain but snow hasn't been made on it for a few years. The snowmaking pond was upgraded recently but the capacity wasn't increased. I believe the approvals for enlarging the pond are in place and could be finalized in a very short time. There is also a connection from the stream that runs to Lowell Lake from which water can be pumped with some restrictions on flow rates (protecting fish).

The problem with having snow for Christmas is starting soon enough to make it.

There are restrictions on how much can be made ( the pond does have to be enlarged) but there is enough capacity to cover more than is covered.

I think it comes down to the funds available and how and when to utilize them including repairing some pipe and expanding the pond.

PS the Red Chair is a lot more reliable than one would gather from reading this thread. In the last 5 years I can remember only one time when a wheel (shive?) went and the chair had to run slowly to unload people. Alsothe Red Chair was down for a period of time 2 years ago (The Black Chair was used) because the shive? trains were sent out for rebuilding (prior to opening) and didn't come back for almost a month after the mountain opened.

The slow Red Chair makes it to the top (one mile) in 12 minutes.