AZ Challenge 2009: Win Smith, Sugarbush Resort

[Tin Woodsman]

I will always hate the lack of pre-season snow in the snowfall totals. The main argument doesn't make sense to me.
i.e. "A more reasonable expectation of what to find on the mountain."

What if you arrive after January thaw? Should the previous snow be erased historically as well as literally? When you open natural snow trails early season, it shows that snow falls and accumulates before the season.

Whatever.

OTOH, does it make sense to include snow from a freak storm in mid-October when there isn't a trace of that by opening day in mid-November? I think that's BS.

 

[JD]

Apologies for the stupid inference. That said, it's not wise to make someone state publicly things which are better left to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. There are tracks all over SB pre-season made by those who know where to go so as to avoid any run-ins with people who are obligated to tell them to scram. As a local, you should know this. Besides, I thought you were staying away from SB b/c you were mad they don't count pre-season snow in their totals, or that there was less snow three days after an October storm than they claimed to have received the day of the storm.

Yea, some of those tracks are mine. I just don't like sneaking around. TW, what flavor was the cool aid?

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Yea, some of those tracks are mine. I just don't like sneaking around. TW, what flavor was the cool aid?

I'm not saying I agree with the policy. Far from it. Rather, I understand that SB has a unique set of circumstances not faced by any other VT resort and that some things are better left unspoken in a public forum. It's a pity that you mistake this realization for acquiescence.

If you don't like sneaking around, go elsewhere. If you can put aside your distaste for sneaking around, and for a moment concentrate on the fact that you could be making turns in unspoiled powder at the closest big mountain to your house, then perhaps you wouldn't be as worked up. alas.

 

[JD]

Perhaps....but with MRG so close, it's no real loss to me.

 

[mattlucas]

well, you can't lose either way then.

 

[Geoff]

Perhaps....but with MRG so close, it's no real loss to me.

Somehow, I doubt Sugarbush cares. You are not their target market. The people who pay the bills have the deep pockets to buy slopeside real estate or book vacations through the resort. Unless you have a co-op like MRG where the previous owner basically gave the place away at far less than market value, ski areas have big bills to pay and have to be run as businesses. Dawn patrol doesn't add to the bottom line and is probably an issue with their insurance company. Every dollar that insurance policy goes up to fund the liability risk is a dollar removed from the bottom line. ASC dumped Sugarbush for next to nothing because it wasn't profitable. If Win Smith is able to come up with a business formula to make the resort profitable, that's way better than having it be a NELSAP poster child.

 

[thetrailboss]

Somehow, I doubt Sugarbush cares. You are not their target market. The people who pay the bills have the deep pockets to buy slopeside real estate or book vacations through the resort. Unless you have a co-op like MRG where the previous owner basically gave the place away at far less than market value, ski areas have big bills to pay and have to be run as businesses. Dawn patrol doesn't add to the bottom line and is probably an issue with their insurance company. Every dollar that insurance policy goes up to fund the liability risk is a dollar removed from the bottom line. ASC dumped Sugarbush for next to nothing because it wasn't profitable. If Win Smith is able to come up with a business formula to make the resort profitable, that's way better than having it be a NELSAP poster child.

Plus SB has a first tracks program with the snowcat.

 

[Newpylong]

Somehow, I doubt Sugarbush cares. You are not their target market. The people who pay the bills have the deep pockets to buy slopeside real estate or book vacations through the resort. Unless you have a co-op like MRG where the previous owner basically gave the place away at far less than market value, ski areas have big bills to pay and have to be run as businesses. Dawn patrol doesn't add to the bottom line and is probably an issue with their insurance company. Every dollar that insurance policy goes up to fund the liability risk is a dollar removed from the bottom line. ASC dumped Sugarbush for next to nothing because it wasn't profitable. If Win Smith is able to come up with a business formula to make the resort profitable, that's way better than having it be a NELSAP poster child.

I would argue that ASC dumped Sugarbush not because it wasn't profitable, but that they realized it would take them far too long to regain what they had spent (28 million dollars in just two years). That, along with the rising costs of the skiing empire they had created caused them to sell the resort for some quick cash.

 

[thetrailboss]

I would argue that ASC dumped Sugarbush not because it wasn't profitable, but that they realized it would take them far too long to regain what they had spent (28 million dollars in just two years). That, along with the rising costs of the skiing empire they had created caused them to sell the resort for some quick cash.

Actually the $28 mill was when LBO was in charge (predecessor to ASC). Not that it makes much difference.

The biggest reason why they dumped it I've heard is because they were going NOWHERE with the Grand Summit Resort hotel.

 

[deadheadskier]

The biggest reason why they dumped it I've heard is because they were going NOWHERE with the Grand Summit Resort hotel.

what I heard as well. Timeline wasn't fast enough for Real Estate development. That was generally the downfall of ASC overall. Too much investment in infrastructure prior to securing permits and pre-construction deposits on profitable real estate. Their business model was the exact opposite of Intrawest.

 

[JD]

Somehow, I doubt Sugarbush cares. You are not their target market. The people who pay the bills have the deep pockets to buy slopeside real estate or book vacations through the resort. Unless you have a co-op like MRG where the previous owner basically gave the place away at far less than market value, ski areas have big bills to pay and have to be run as businesses. Dawn patrol doesn't add to the bottom line and is probably an issue with their insurance company. Every dollar that insurance policy goes up to fund the liability risk is a dollar removed from the bottom line. ASC dumped Sugarbush for next to nothing because it wasn't profitable. If Win Smith is able to come up with a business formula to make the resort profitable, that's way better than having it be a NELSAP poster child.

This is prolly true. But imagine how much untracked pow you could shred if an area like the bush did not run it's lifts all season. I think I would live in the lot out of my truck all winter. Dream come true. Kinda hoping this happens to Stowe. Imagine Mansfield with no lifts. Lot party for 6 months! That would RULE!

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

This is prolly true. But imagine how much untracked pow you could shred if an area like the bush did not run it's lifts all season. I think I would live in the lot out of my truck all winter. Dream come true. Kinda hoping this happens to Stowe. Imagine Mansfield with no lifts. Lot party for 6 months! That would RULE!

I like lifts..

 

[deadheadskier]

This is prolly true. But imagine how much untracked pow you could shred if an area like the bush did not run it's lifts all season. I think I would live in the lot out of my truck all winter. Dream come true. Kinda hoping this happens to Stowe. Imagine Mansfield with no lifts. Lot party for 6 months! That would RULE!

the vast majority of Vermont is forested. There are plenty of mountains for you to have fun on. Deal with it and respect the desires of others to enjoy lift serviced skiing.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

the vast majority of Vermont is forested. There are plenty of mountains for you to have fun on. Deal with it and respect the desires of others to enjoy lift serviced skiing.

times 2

 

[JD]

I'm sure there's be rednecks there with big sleds running folks up. More like 40ppl an hour instead of a coupla thousand....Anyway. SB. Nice looking terrain. Hopefully they embrace the BC enthusiast who like self powered skiing. Looking forward to the response.
Here's and Idea. How about a touring season pass that gives you access to some facilities like the lodge and what not, but no lifts. I toss 'em 100 bucks just for the open mindedness.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I'm sure there's be rednecks there with big sleds running folks up. More like 40ppl an hour instead of a coupla thousand....Anyway. SB. Nice looking terrain. Hopefully they embrace the BC enthusiast who like self powered skiing. Looking forward to the response.
Here's and Idea. How about a touring season pass that gives you access to some facilities like the lodge and what not, but no lifts. I toss 'em 100 bucks just for the open mindedness.

then when I'm flying down the trail around a corner I have to watch out for hippies skinning uphill..no thanks..already enough of that at Stowe..

 

[Newpylong]

Actually the $28 mill was when LBO was in charge (predecessor to ASC). Not that it makes much difference.

The biggest reason why they dumped it I've heard is because they were going NOWHERE with the Grand Summit Resort hotel.

No, since LBO just changed his companies name to ASC, it doesn't matter.

 

[thetrailboss]

OK, maybe too late for this question, but here goes. I ski Mount Ellen a lot and this season I noticed a big problem with the traffic pattern coming down into the North Ridge base area...the area formerly called "Times Square."

I know that you want to have a green easy route to the lift, especially for those coming from Inverness, but honestly having Mainstream cutting across three busy cruiser runs (Northstar, Cruiser, Which Way) really makes things bad. Mainstream is a traverse and in my experience becomes an icy sluice way. What about closing the traverse, so that you ski Cruiser and Which Way down to North Star? I have seen some near misses on the traverse, and as I said, it becomes very icy very quickly and interrupts the natural urge for one to ski the fall line. Thanks.

 

[thetrailboss]

Another question since this is still open. Regarding Mount Ellen, a lot of emphasis has been placed on attracting locals for weekend skiing or day visits. With an eye towards improving the quality of the experience, I am wondering if anything can be done about the lodge on race days. GMVS has their own private lodge by the Inverness Quad and that helps keep the GMVS racers and their junior racing programs in their own area. But when their guests come to race, which is pretty much every weekend, these folks clog the Mount Ellen Base Lodge, throw their stuff everywhere, take up lots of table space forcing other paying guests to sit on the floor, are rude to guests and staff, and really make the experience not very fun. Is there any way to ask them to go to the GMVS Lodge or to at least ask that they use a specific section of the lodge? Any way that GMVS can be asked to help police the situation? I understand that they can't control their guests, but at least there should be some communication regarding what is proper lodge etiquette and to remind them to be considerate of other guests.

I understand that GMVS is a major stakeholder at Sugarbush and they are a big reason why Ellen is still in operation, but there are other guests who are paying to use the facilities. Thanks.

 

[deadheadskier]

But when their guests come to race, which is pretty much every weekend, these folks clog the Mount Ellen Base Lodge, throw their stuff everywhere, take up lots of table space forcing other paying guests to sit on the floor, are rude to guests and staff, and really make the experience not very fun.

Can't speak to the rudeness, just want to comment on people leaving their bags on tables. We had a strict policy at Wisp against this and a complimentary bag check area. Staff responsible for bussing tables were instructed to remove bags on or below tables and bring them to bag check.

I think the Lincoln Base has something similar? Though I'm not certain it's manned. I do remember having a place to put my bag out of the way and free of charge. Ellen should have something similar.

I can't stand manifest destiny lodge campers who stake claim to tables and applaud areas that do their best to educate groups / individuals that it's not 'their' lodge, it's 'our' or 'everyone's' lodge. And if you really want to get me going, leave your dirty cafeteria tray at a table without cleaning after yourself should be grounds for cruel punishment. My father would've smacked me silly for doing that like so many kids do today.