More Gore

[AdironRider]

So the other thread turned into more of a pissing match than anything, but I think this is a question that got overlooked and hasnt been discussed in a while.

Do you think the recent development at Gore is going to be a success or failure?

Gore has been putting some serious money down on the table, and has really added to the terrain. The Burnt Ridge area and the upcoming interconnect to the Ski Bowl in North Creek coming online next year. Do you think these developments, and the connection and addition of North Creek as a true village, will bring Gore into the top 5 of the east, or at least into a true destination? Or do you think they missed the boat, with the crash of real estate and the overall economy do you think the development is going to stall out once the government work is done (ski area development) and private takes over (North Creek development condos, restaurants, shopping)?

Personally, I think that if implemented well, Gore could really have something there. There is something to be said for a real village being the base opposed to a fake reconstruction of something in the Alps. Notable examples of fake development to me are Stratton in the east and Beaver Creek in the west. North Creek certainly needs to be spruced up a bit, but the real downtown feel is there.

Gore has varied and interesting terrain, and a good layout that keeps beginners, intermediates, and experts in there own areas. Outside of the saddle, theres little I dislike about the layout of the mountain, and its variation in terrain aspects usually leaves some good snow to be found somewhere. Snowmaking is decent, but not spectacular, and the tree skiing is outstanding.

No they do not get comparable snow to Stowe, Jay or Killington, but they do get equal snow to Mt. Snow, Magic, and frankly Whiteface. Whiteface tends to get a little more, but it holds longer at Gore, I consider it a wash. Gore is closer to NYC, Albany, and all points south, and thats a large skier base to tap into.

So what say you, will the development at Gore change anything?

 

[Skimaine]

I think the State can only go so far. To be top 5 it would need to go private. I think it would be unlikely for the state to give it up.

 

[mattchuck2]

It won't get to the level of Whiteface. Lake Placid is better than North Creek will ever be. I'm envisioning something like Smugg's. Beginner area and pseudo village on the bottom of the mountain where kids, instruction, groomed cruisers will be, and diamond level terrain up top with lots of glades (both on the map and off the map). There will also be one bar that retains its local sort of vibe (Like the Brewski @ Smugg's). I'd say it will be Laura's.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I think the State can only go so far. To be top 5 it would need to go private. I think it would be unlikely for the state to give it up.

I think this nails it. Gore will have a tremendous amount going for it, as AdironRider well described, but really going commercial to achieve Top 5 status is unlikely to happen under State ownership. I think it's more likely to hurt a place like Hunter or Windham than perhaps the VT resorts, but who knows. It's hard for me to imagine that they would out-compete a place like Okemo which has a laser-like focus on their family market. They've certainly got the goods to make it interesting, even if they don't get the snow.

 

[Harvey]

Do you think the recent development at Gore is going to be a success or failure?

Gore has been putting some serious money down on the table, and has really added to the terrain. The Burnt Ridge area and the upcoming interconnect to the Ski Bowl in North Creek coming online next year. Do you think these developments, and the connection and addition of North Creek as a true village, will bring Gore into the top 5 of the east, or at least into a true destination? Or do you think they missed the boat, with the crash of real estate and the overall economy do you think the development is going to stall out once the government work is done (ski area development) and private takes over (North Creek development condos, restaurants, shopping)?

Personally, I think that if implemented well, Gore could really have something there. There is something to be said for a real village being the base opposed to a fake reconstruction of something in the Alps. Notable examples of fake development to me are Stratton in the east and Beaver Creek in the west. North Creek certainly needs to be spruced up a bit, but the real downtown feel is there.

Gore has varied and interesting terrain, and a good layout that keeps beginners, intermediates, and experts in there own areas. Outside of the saddle, theres little I dislike about the layout of the mountain, and its variation in terrain aspects usually leaves some good snow to be found somewhere. Snowmaking is decent, but not spectacular, and the tree skiing is outstanding.

No they do not get comparable snow to Stowe, Jay or Killington, but they do get equal snow to Mt. Snow, Magic, and frankly Whiteface. Whiteface tends to get a little more, but it holds longer at Gore, I consider it a wash. Gore is closer to NYC, Albany, and all points south, and thats a large skier base to tap into.

So what say you, will the development at Gore change anything?

I agree with everything AdironRider has said here before he posed his question at the end.

There is one thing I'm not sure of. Contrary to what some have said the bottom of the trail system will not actually connect to the village. It is MUCH closer, but you can't actually see town from the bottom of the lift. It probably a 100-200 yards to the bulk of Main Street.

I'd love to know about the ZONING of the land right around the bowl. Will town expand to connect to the skibowl? Will there be restaurants and business close enough for alpine booted folk to spend the cash "off mountain?" I realize none of this has mattered at Whiteface. The mountain is miles from town, and LP thrives.

One thing that I think could be huge, but probably not too likely...a subsidized (cheap) huge bank of accessible locker space at the ski bowl. A quarter to store your boots and gear - to make walking to town easier. And an elevated crosswalk over the road.

While under state control Gore will never be Okemo. For one thing they'll never blow the kind of snow that Okemo does to get terrain open early season, and recover from NCP events. But then Vermont will never be the Adks. I love VT and the Adks. But they will never be the same thing and there will always be some who will prefer one over the other.

I think Gore is going to thrive. Gore is already changing. Contrary to what I seen posted in places town is on the upswing. New owners bought the Alpine... a dilapidated motel... and did a beautiful renovation. New owners bought the hardware store and have done an fantastic job upgrading it. The Copperfield has been reopened under new ownership. The town's benefactor built a beautiful community center that showcases art and cultural events, (and Warren Miller flicks!). It's true that there are still some unoccupied businesses. It's been a long slow process and the current downturn has created some friction. But North Creek is coming. I don't think they missed the boat at all. With real estate...if you have a good idea and long term view your investment will usually pay off.

North Creek will change. It's not going to be Lake Placid, or Stowe, or Killington or Ludlow. But it won't be the North Creek of old either.

 

[x10003q]

I agree with everything AdironRider has said here before he posed his question at the end.

There is one thing I'm not sure of. Contrary to what some have said the bottom of the trail system will not actually connect to the village. It is MUCH closer, but you can't actually see town from the bottom of the lift. It probably a 100-200 yards to the bulk of Main Street.

I'd love to know about the ZONING of the land right around the bowl. Will town expand to connect to the skibowl? Will there be restaurants and business close enough for alpine booted folk to spend the cash "off mountain?" I realize none of this has mattered at Whiteface. The mountain is miles from town, and LP thrives.

One thing that I think could be huge, but probably not too likely...a subsidized (cheap) huge bank of accessible locker space at the ski bowl. A quarter to store your boots and gear - to make walking to town easier. And an elevated crosswalk over the road.

While under state control Gore will never be Okemo. For one thing they'll never blow the kind of snow that Okemo does to get terrain open early season, and recover from NCP events. But then Vermont will never be the Adks. I love VT and the Adks. But they will never be the same thing and there will always be some who will prefer one over the other.

I think Gore is going to thrive. Gore is already changing. Contrary to what I seen posted in places town is on the upswing. New owners bought the Alpine... a dilapidated motel... and did a beautiful renovation. New owners bought the hardware store and have done an fantastic job upgrading it. The Copperfield has been reopened under new ownership. The town's benefactor built a beautiful community center that showcases art and cultural events, (and Warren Miller flicks!). It's true that there are still some unoccupied businesses. It's been a long slow process and the current downturn has created some friction. But North Creek is coming. I don't think they missed the boat at all. With real estate...if you have a good idea and long term view your investment will usually pay off.

North Creek will change. It's not going to be Lake Placid, or Stowe, or Killington or Ludlow. But it won't be the North Creek of old either.

The distance via car from the base of the existing chair in the Ski Bowl to the corner of Rt 28N (Bridge St) and Main St (in NC) is .5 of a mile. If you make a left onto Main St it is another .3 of a mile to the supermarket( middle of Main St). A straight line from the Ski Bowl to the same spot on Main St is less than .5 of a mile. I would not want to walk to town in ski boots even if a bridge is built over the 55mph Rt 28. Some kind of free shuttle system would be a better option. The ideal option would be a cabriolet lift like the on at Mt Tremblant. If this happened the downtown NC would explode with housing and food options.

This development will be huge for Gore. It might take 10 years to finally play out, but ultimately this is a good thing. Right now Gore does not have enough of a base of beds. When the Ski bowl is built out the people who bought are built in year round users of the area. This translates into the rest/bar/shopping in the area. Many of these units will be available for rental increasing the number of overnight stays. If there are a couple of rest/bar choices in the Ski Bowl, skiers/sliders will come down off the main section of Gore and see how nice the village area is and might decide to stay or buy in the area.

The NYS ownership is limiting, but once the village is complete skier visits will have increased compared to current visits. This will increase everything associated - income from the skiing operations, increase in available jobs, increase in collected taxes, more local business thriving, increase in property values, etc. Maybe Gore management would be forced to open all the terrain sooner in the season and not close terrain during slow midweek periods. These are all good things for the North Creek area's ability to survive. For anybody who lives west of the Hudson River, Gore is the easiest major ski area to visit. Sometimes it just takes a while for things to catch on.

 

[AdironRider]

I think a simple lift to downtown North Creek is a critical element to the success of this development. It doesnt make much sense to basically rebuild all the amenities of North Creek a 1/2 mile closer at the Ski Bowl Village. You could spend a mill on a nice passenger lift from the base of the ski bowl to North Creek, and spend the money on more trail development and snowmaking, opposed to millions on base area develoment that already exists, 1/2 mile away.

I think it would give Gore a truely unique skiing experience. Nowhere else in the east would you have a true New England village at the base of a major league hill. True shops, restaurants, a real supermarket for all the timeshare owners and condo renters, all major amenities available to the entire Gore population without the use of a car. This should be lift 14 if you ask me, not the ski bowl to gore base lift everyone still seems to think is on the table.

I would think businesses would be willing to pool together and at lease provide some funding, it would be a smart business move. Otherwise they risk losing a bunch of tourist busines to the proposed ski bowl village.

Also, I think the state is already showing that they are willing to spend some money to get this off the ground. Snowmaking on pipeline should come, as with snowmaking at all the ski bowl trails. If the layout on the current map is right, you should be able to access the BRQ and make the whole operation ski in ski out. Thats quite a package that is much closer to NYC than anywhere else with similar amenities.

 

[Harvey]

I think a simple lift to downtown North Creek is a critical element to the success of this development. It doesnt make much sense to basically rebuild all the amenities of North Creek a 1/2 mile closer at the Ski Bowl Village. You could spend a mill on a nice passenger lift from the base of the ski bowl to North Creek, and spend the money on more trail development and snowmaking, opposed to millions on base area develoment that already exists, 1/2 mile away.

I think it would give Gore a truely unique skiing experience. Nowhere else in the east would you have a true New England village at the base of a major league hill. True shops, restaurants, a real supermarket for all the timeshare owners and condo renters, all major amenities available to the entire Gore population without the use of a car. This should be lift 14 if you ask me, not the ski bowl to gore base lift everyone still seems to think is on the table.

I would think businesses would be willing to pool together and at lease provide some funding, it would be a smart business move. Otherwise they risk losing a bunch of tourist busines to the proposed ski bowl village.

Also, I think the state is already showing that they are willing to spend some money to get this off the ground. Snowmaking on pipeline should come, as with snowmaking at all the ski bowl trails. If the layout on the current map is right, you should be able to access the BRQ and make the whole operation ski in ski out. Thats quite a package that is much closer to NYC than anywhere else with similar amenities.

You guys are right - you need that lift to really get the full benefit of all the money spent. You probably both know that this idea has been drawn up at least 2x before..

When you think about a stimulus package...what an awesome way to spend a million. (Could you could do it for that?)

So...a million let's say...more construction jobs right away. And then I think...the limited rooms, and then the restaurants in town would rise in value. I'd bet you get more investment in town. What a cool way to pay back the folks who are anchoring main street now.... B&N, Sarahs, The Alpine, etc. I bet Joel Beaudin and the Copperfield investors would do a little jig. It could have benefits for years to come.

I know on projects that I've worked on that took multiple years...many times you end up with the RIGHT solution, even though it's not what you started out to do exactly. For this idea to work, BRQ had to be built, and we are getting some value out of it. (Maybe not an amount equal to the cost SO FAR, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet.)

And now the Ski Bowl. Not only is there good terrain over there, but it's an historic ski area that is being brought back to life. Pretty cool.

Maybe AFTER the ski bowl is connected this transfer lift will be the obvious conclusion to the project. I mean obvious to the people who get to decide it. You've got $5-10 million into it over the last 10 years, and now for another - how ever much - you'd really start to get local benefit.

I know there are a lot skeptics who think this won't happen. Or that the powers that be would let it happen. Maybe they're right. This would increase the appeal of Gore vs all mountains including Whiteface. But it sure makes more sense than spending that money on Lift #14 = the gondi to nowhere.

 

[witch hobble]

I've moved away, so I should probably just shaddup and keep my opinions to myself.............but this is the internet. What fun would that be?

The sheer amount of change during the "Pratt era" at Gore is impressive. Rumor, Lies, shitloads of new glades created (and appropriated from the outlaws), new gondi, Topridge area, burnt ridge destruction, I mean expansion, snowmaking and grooming upgrades, ski bowl rebirth. It is really very different. Think about how far the person at the bottom of the ski bowl is from the person shwackin out past the reaper on the chati ridge line, and all the skiable terrain between the two. It is mind bogglingly Killingtonesque.

A lift from North Creek to the bowl would make it a five chairlift ride from the Tops parking lot to the summit. That is wild. But would Front Street welcome that lift? I'm sure that they have designs for all services that NC offers in their plans for SKi Bowl Village, along with the hotels, clubhouses, golf course, equestrain center, etc. It is easy (at least for me) to scoff at pre fab "ski villages", but some people obviously find them an necessary amenity for their vacation. I'll leave that for another thread. Would the DOT welcome that lift?

North Creek could definately use some stability in their commercial sector (aside from Stewarts). I wasn't there all that long, but I've lost track of the places that have gone or come and gone in that time. Mattchuck pictures Laura's as the place retaining the local vibe, but they have been there for all of what? two winters?

The top 5 ? is so subjective. I'm sure if the expansion takes place as planned Gore will pop up on those Ski Mag lists that we love to deride. But no doubt something will be lost. No doubt something already has. Gore does and likely always will have more to offer the day tripping advanced skier (as long as they don't care about the terrain park) than the bulk of the southern VT places.

 

[tjf67]

when things are done there is going to be a village inside all of the new condo's and home. The land swaps are done. Its going to happen. The town of North Creek is going to benefit from the spill over affect.

 

[skimore]

. The Burnt Ridge area and the upcoming interconnect to the Ski Bowl in North Creek coming online next year. Do you think these developments, and the connection and addition of North Creek as a true village, will bring Gore into the top 5 of the east, or at least into a true destination?

But it really doesn't go to the village. Are people going to walk over 1/4 mile from the ski bowl to the village?

 

[Harvey]

Thought some of the people interested in Gore and this thread may be interested in this. A lot of Gore skiers have been wondering why Gore hasn't been blowing more aggressively.

I walked into Emily Stanton's (Gore Marketing) office yesterday morning on the way out of town. We talked about a variety of stuff, including a lot of the topics that are important to the hardcore skiers here on the forum. Mike came in, and sat down for about 30 minutes.

* * *

With regard to the lack of snowmaking this week, he didn't seem to be hiding anything. He didn't hesitate ... he just laid it all out without a pause.

He said that on Tuesday night, late, the power went out on the entire mountain. His words were "all 35,000 volts."

He explained that when the power goes out - on the active lines, hoses and nozzles freeze.

Apparently the snowmaking system is 90% gravity drained. Just open up the valves at the bottom and let all the water run out. Even with the late hour of the outage and the extremely cold temps they were able to drain a majority of the system.

If the nozzles, hoses etc don't freeze completely, you can run water through it, and selectively apply torches, and it will eventually clear the lines.

But if the plumbing freezes solid, all the nozzles and hoses have to be brought inside, to let them warm up. It's a huge pain in the posterior and takes a lot of time.

While he didn't say specifically, and I didn't ask, I have to assume these issues affected the summit. The area that needed snow the most and got little snowmaking this week.

He also said that when the wind is as high as it was on Tuesday and again on Sunday... snowmaking accomplishes nothing.

I did ask him if he'd been up on the Hawkeye Headwall. He'd said he'd just come from there and he knew it needed attention immediately.

* * *

There was a lot more. He explained his snowmaking philosophy and his approach to utilizing limited resources. We talked skiing, facebook, parking, lift 14, and a bunch of other stuff.

I'm going to write it up and post it on Harvey Road in the next few days.

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/conversation-with-emily-and-mike.html

 

[witch hobble]

Man, things must be pretty bad over there for upper mgmt to give that much face time to some internet agit-prop dude with a blog. And allow follow up questions? Wow.

Just kidding Harv. Your Gore love shines through.

Parking lot boondoggle.
Snowmaking Fiasco.
Social networking experiment turned clusterfuck.

It is funny from a distance.

My question for Pratt: Will you give Harv a job in PR/Marketing for the Mountain?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

My question for Pratt: Will you give Harv a job in PR/Marketing for the Mountain?

That's exactly what I said to Emily two months ago... actually, I didn't tell her to give him a job, just pay him for all the work does.

 

[catskills]

If Hunter mtn is sold to a developer with deep pockets with significant improvements like two more HSQ and build more hotels, this could hurt Gore.

If the Belleayre state and private development plans happens this will hurt Gore.

On the other hand Gore expansion will significantly hurt the Catskill resorts more than the Vermont resorts IMHO.

The thing to remember is the baby boomer crowd is getting too grey to ski, which will significantly reduce the skier/rider visits in the next decade(s). Increasing skier/rider visits at Gore will mean they stole those customers from other resorts. The question is which resorts will be impacted by Gore's increased market share.

 

[deadheadskier]

at 4.5 hours from New York City, Gore would indeed be quite vulnerable to Hunter and Bellyare expansion. That would hurt VT areas as well.

 

[Harvey]

Man, things must be pretty bad over there for upper mgmt to give that much face time to some internet agit-prop dude with a blog.

Just kidding Harv. Your Gore love shines through.

Thanks for that. I think. Can someone tell me what an agit-prop dude is? I mean I can't imagine it's good but if it's a total hose then PM me. :lol:

The thing to remember is the baby boomer crowd is getting too grey to ski ...

Hey! I resent that!

There's this little thing that is chasing me inside my head.

Every really old skier you see seems to have peaked at some point, and then settled in at that level. My sisters father-in-law is 80. He's a good skier, but he's no better than he was at 60.

I'm 51 on Friday. So every year I think ... is this the year I stop getting better? I'm going down fighting, and like a true boomer - throwing money at the problem - upgrading the hell out of my gear.

Anyway...

I finished the first part of my piece based on my conversation with Emily Stanton and Mike Pratt.

Part One is with Emily - she's the Marketing Manager. Part two is with Mike - he is the GM - the top guy on property at Gore.

Facebook in Part One. A little on Parking.

Parking and Snowmaking in Part Two.

First part is here:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/conversation-with-emily-stanton.html

As always input on blog is appreciated.

Hope to have Part 2 up tomorrow or next day.

 

[x10003q]

at 4.5 hours from New York City, Gore would indeed be quite vulnerable to Hunter and Bellyare expansion. That would hurt VT areas as well.

Not to be argumentative, but for the 10 years I lived in Manhattan and it usually took me 3:30-3:45 to get to the Lincoln Tunnel on a Sunday night from Gore. It might have drifted to 4hrs during holiday weekends.

There is no comparison between Gore and the Catskills. Right now I am 3hrs from Gore and 1:35 from Hunter. I love Hunter but its going to take a lot more acreage for it to compete with Gore.

 

[witch hobble]

Thanks for that. I think. Can someone tell me what an agit-prop dude is? I mean I can't imagine it's good but if it's a total hose then PM me. :lol:

Agit-prop is agittation propaganda. Dude is some sort of laid back wrangler. It was sarcasm that obviously whiffed.

Great interview! Harvey Road really is an excellent blog. I'm a loyal reader. Keep up the good work.

 

[Harvey]

Gore was better than I expected. MILES beyond where they were last weekend.

Trails were good - a solid B. Trees seem to be improving even though there has been "no snow." Six (?) days of flurries since New Years has been about ten inches I'd say.

The 1-2" predicted was 2" at the base and 4" at the top. I know it's not a lot, but it really mattered.

Lots of snowmaking, and no gak that I could see.

I learned about the capacity and limits or the Gore snowmaking system.

And I learned about the different ways things can go wrong. For example ... the Hudson River is a GREAT ASSET for Gore. But sometimes you'll get a leaf stuck in a nozzle - that can cause gakification. I had no idea. I'm just skiin by goin WTF?

For anyone interested in that stuff - I'll try to post it asap.

Anyway .... pics and TR from today here:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/gore-mtn-ny-1810.html