Killington - Expert trails CLOSED, with NO Snowmaking....

[deadheadskier]

I hate to actually agree with HS about something, but he is right. This is skiing. It is not a consistent business. Some years you lose money. K needs to accept that fact. Blow #$@% the trails already!

I wonder how much ski areas budget in terms of reserves for winters when they don't turn a profit.

 

[neil]

Killington sucks. It's the worst. Every year they fail. Epically. Epic fail you might say.

I'll be buying a pass next year.

 

[drjeff]

I wonder how much ski areas budget in terms of reserves for winters when they don't turn a profit.

Then again there's a website full of one's that threw the concept of annual losses out the window!

www.nelsap.org

 

[deadheadskier]

Then again there's a website full of one's that threw the concept of annual losses out the window!

www.nelsap.org

Given it's physical assets, Killington will never end up on that list. I do worry that list will grow for next season. It must be real scary for some of the mom and pop areas out there.

 

[legalskier]

Agreed, we got hosed this year and it wasn't by the weather.

I can understand your frustration- why don't you contact them and ask why those particular trails haven't been covered? There may be a rational justification and you won't have to guess at what's going on. You may or may not agree with their reasoning but at least they'll get the benefit of the doubt.

The fact is that the weather has been hosing the entire NE this season. Most areas are in survival mode or close to it. Snowmaking is very expensive, even more so over an extended period like this season. It is what it is. :sad:

 

[Ski the Moguls]

The reality is though about the "modern" snowmaking process at just about any ski area these days vs. what the snowmaking process of the past USED to be, is that from an operations standpoint, ski area managers have so much more data available to them today than in years past AND for a hard cap on the annual snowmaking budget. Combined with the fact that the energy costs today vs. what they were 10+ years ago makes snowmaking much more expensive per hour than it used to me (using K as an example, I don't think that anyone would dispute that the cost of a gallon of diesel to power the air compressors, or the cost of a Kw hour to run an fixed electric compressors is much greater than it was 10+ years ago), so as a result, many ski areas are far more aware of how efficiently they can make snow vs. just "can they make snow" at any given moment.

I'm guessing that the great effort, with much credit given to them that K put in back in October and November to get open and then stay open caused them to go through a greater percentage of their annual snowmaking budget than they anticipated. Then the number of resurfacing events they have had to go through this year didn't help either. So now they've probably had to make the tough choice of looking at the weather and the resources (read as $$ left in the snowmaking budget) and make choices based on logic, not emotion (i.e. an 18 hour window or so ahead of a 2 day warm up to start making snow on a new double diamond trail probably isn't as high a priority as using those same snowmaking budget dollars on the backside of that warm up when resurfacing is needed of existing terrain). I'm guessing that K, just like most Eastern Ski areas this year because of the weather, will end up seeing a decrease in skier/rider visits. The choice then to go beyond a likely budgeted amount of snowmaking funds at the expense of an already likely decrease in seasonal revenues will be tough, especially given the capital expense that K is looking at this summer with the completion of the summit lodge.

The business choices that have to be made sometimes aren't easy by any means, and until someone has been in the situation where they've had to make a tough business descision, almost having the only choice being one of "which is the lesser of two evils?" it's really tough to grasp this concept. Since as much as "the customer is always right" applies, there's also a time when the expectations of a customer can't bet achieved in the current circumstance presented to the business

Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.

 

[oakapple]

Given it's physical assets, Killington will never end up on that list. I do worry that list will grow for next season. It must be real scary for some of the mom and pop areas out there.

I agree that there is no scenario where Killington winds up on the NELSAP list. But one only needs to go back to the ASC days, to know what happens when the finances become over-extended beyond their means.

You can practically guarantee that when someone issues a pronouncement that ends with "PERIOD," it is a gross exaggeration. No one ever writes, "Today is Friday. PERIOD." People use that extra emphasis to create a false sense of certainty, when the actual question is much more debatable.

 

[oakapple]

Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.

I'm just wondering: is there an actual analytical basis for this? Or is it just the adult equivalent of pounding on the high chair, and saying, "Mommy, I want more chocolate."

Don't get me wrong: I am not happy to see so many trails closed, not just at Killington (which I am visiting tomorrow), but at every other ski area. It is just not clear to me that their strategy is necessarily the wrong one.

 

[2knees]

I'm just wondering: is there an actual analytical basis for this? .

This is killington we're talking about. Facts never do come into play much in these threads.

To see the other side of it however it looks as though they are taking almost the exact opposite approach and trying to fit their expenditures into the down season instead of staying the course and at least holding to a pre season plan.

And no, I have no facts to base this on, just a thought.

 

[Hawkshot99]

Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.

You dont own a business do you?

Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again. If it is really that bad, dont ski there.

 

[farlep99]

Your argument makes sense to a normal business, but skiing is NOT a normal business. My point is that a ski area should not have a fixed budget for snowmaking. The weather is not consistent, so the snowmaking should not be, either. In a year such as this, they need to say @#$% the budget and blow as much snow as they can. It IS the economics of the business. K knew this in November, but they seem to have forgotten it now.

In addition to this, yes, the cost of a gallon of diesel has increased over the last 10+ years. But so has the price of a lift ticket. If they're increasing their prices, the services provided should follow. And I agree, weather is inconsistent so any snowmaking budget should be flexible. I'm not arguing the OP's point about where they should or shouldn't be making snow. OPS decisions are surely made for a reason. I just hope the reason isn't just all about profit & not delivering the service

 

[thetrailboss]

this might be backwards. perhaps the customers need to accept the facts.

A lot of folks have already fled....

 

[SIKSKIER]

Drjeff is right on the on this one.I can't speak for the Beast but I can't remember when I've seen Cannon resurface trails so many times.For the most part they usually make snow one time and move on.Middle Cannon and Ravine have been done 3 times now.They have posted on their snow report for 2 weeks that they will be making snow on Upper Cannon it still has not happened as they have had to go back to resurface.I can't remember when I've not seen Upper Cannon not open the begining of Feb.Its not just Killington HS.

 

[gmcunni]

Killington = New York Mets

Loved by their fans, mocked by others and the owners are idiots who don't know how to run their business?

 

[Ski the Moguls]

You dont own a business do you?

Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again. If it is really that bad, dont ski there.

As a matter of fact I have owned my own business for almost 20 years now, thank you very much.

And I love my children, but that does not mean I do not tell them when they screw up.

Sometime between now and September the majority of high-profit, holiday, family skiers will be making their annual decisions of where to ski. On the holidays you have to book before the areas even open for the year if you want a decent place. Many of those decisions will be based on what ski areas do this year. When people see areas like Stratton, Okemo and Sugarbush having a higher percentage of there trails open than Killington, well, how do you think that will affect their decision making next Fall?

Right now:
Killington 74/140 = 53% open
Stratton 81/94 = 86%
Okemo 89/119 = 75%
Sugarbush 111/111 = 100%

source: http://www.skivermont.com/conditions

 

[legalskier]

When people see areas like Stratton, Okemo and Sugarbush having a higher percentage of there trails open than Killington, well, how do you think that will affect their decision making next Fall?

Right now:
Killington 74/140 = 53% open
Stratton 81/94 = 86%
Okemo 89/119 = 75%
Sugarbush 111/111 = 100%

source: http://www.skivermont.com/conditions

Isn't 53% of K still bigger than those percentages at the other areas?

 

[skiur]

You dont own a business do you?

Every year the same people bitch non-stop about how they are getting screwed by Killington, yet the next year they get a pass there again and bitch non-stop again. If it is really that bad, dont ski there.

Tough to do when you own property. Wanna buy a condo at K? Plus management comes and goes. Hopefully the next one will think differently than nyberg does.

 

[2knees]

Right now:
Killington 74/140 = 53% open
Stratton 81/94 = 86%
Okemo 89/119 = 75%
Sugarbush 111/111 = 100%

source: http://www.skivermont.com/conditions

the bush must be gettin pretty liberal with the trail openings. I would guess castlerock has to be of porcelain quality.

 

[SKIQUATTRO]

i had emailed Pico regarding a snowmaking question and they replied back with in a day.

 

[oakapple]

Drjeff is right on the on this one.I can't speak for the Beast but I can't remember when I've seen Cannon resurface trails so many times.For the most part they usually make snow one time and move on.Middle Cannon and Ravine have been done 3 times now.They have posted on their snow report for 2 weeks that they will be making snow on Upper Cannon it still has not happened as they have had to go back to resurface.I can't remember when I've not seen Upper Cannon not open the begining of Feb. It's not just Killington HS.

The other thing is: most of the trails people are complaining about, although they have snowmaking ability, in a normal year most of the cover would be provided by Mother Nature. When Nature gives zero assistance, the amount you have to blow (for it to be both credible and safe) is all that much more.

Isn't 53% of K still bigger than those percentages at the other areas?

Well, Stratton claims to have 459 acres open, and Okemo claims to have 516 acres, vs. 426 for Killington. I can't find an acreage count for Sugarbush, but I'll bet that 100 percent of Sugarbush is more than 53 percent of Killington.

Now, an awful lot of Killington's closed terrain consists of trails that never had much (or any) snowmaking. No one is complaining about Juggernaut or Valley Plunge. The issue is a handful of Killington's signature double-blacks, which for a certain category of skiers is a very significant omission.