WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[gregnye]

Unfortunately I think that we will see alot more people getting lost in the near future. As a teenager, still in high school, I look around at people in my school and think "Yup, they would never stand a chance in the wild".

Nowadays, people are driven to do stupid stuff just to catch videos of them doing it. People don't travel just to travel anymore. Most of the girls in my school organize trips JUST TO TAKE PICTURES OF THEMSELVES ON IT---and post it to Facebook!!!!!!!! This is sooo annoying!!

So we will see more of this in the future. I was doing community service with a few kids in my school (my age) who couldn't even open a can of paint to paint something!!!! Never mind math and Science, basic survival skills are lacking!!

People don't think---"plan and then do", the just think "I'll think of a plan as I go"

PEOPLE ARE STUPID! (end rant :???

(meanwhile, I do electronics, wood-work and am a member of the Boy Scouts)

 

[fbrissette]

Does anyone know what a typical rescue cost regardless of what the proposed fine here would be?

Just an educated guess:

10 fireman/policeman working overtime - 1000$/per hour
gas/mileage/use of car/truck - 1500$
outdoor equipment - radio, snowmobiles, skis, lamps 1000$

and potentially:
helicopter time - 1500$ per hour
transfer to hospital - 1000$

I would think a very simple search and rescue operation would easily be in the 5 to 10k range and anything more complex/long in the 20 to 50k range.

 

[RootDKJ]

It wont be a deterrent. But when caught speeding, you pay the fine. Same thing with backcountry negligence/accident. I fail to see why taxes (most of my taxes are paid in Canada and I backcountry in Vermont) should cover the risks I willfully take when hitting the backcountry.

Yes they do. I know a lot of people that don't speed due to fear of getting fined. Does it stop everybody? Of course not but it significantly reduces the amount of people driving 90mph.

Education is also a deterrent, one that does not entangle with the monopoly on the use of force.. What happens if someone is unable or unwilling to pay the fine (tax)? Off to the rape cage?

 

[fbrissette]

Here is an article which cites costs associated with rescues in the Tetons. It also has a section where it proposes special use Fees up to $500 dollars per person to cover rescue costs. It is referencing climbers not skiers but it applies to our conversation.

http://wyofile.com/2011/05/teton-rescue-cost/

Here's one in the White mountains. A scout was charges 25k for the cost of his rescue operation.

http://www.backpacker.com/eagle_scout_fine_rescue/blogs/1177

 

[from_the_NEK]

Education is also a deterrent, one that does not entangle with the monopoly on the use of force.. What happens if someone is unable or unwilling to pay the fine (tax)? Off to the rape cage?

Education only educates the willing (see gregnye's post above about stupid people). There has to be a penalty for not learning (e.g. bad grades). You have pointed out the one sticky point with my plan. How do you actually get someone to pay? Is it like the parking ticket I got in Boston 10 years ago that I never paid?

 

[MadMadWorld]

The rescuees never actually go before the "panel".
A member of the State Police (with extra training for this task) interviews the rescuee(s) immediately after their rescue. The short list of questions above should take no more than 5 minutes per person to complete. Most likely the State Police are already asking followup questions to file with thier reports.
The answers are then taken before the panel (consisting of the specially trained officer and 2 or three high ranking members of the resort's ski patrol). They review the answers and make a determination of Large, Small, or no charge. Of course there will be inconsistancy in anwsers between members of a group but the more inconsistant the answers the more likely they are to get charged. The panel process should take no more than 2 hours. I figure the "No Charge" cases would be pretty easy to determine and therefore the panel would only deliberate for a short amount of time. The cases were charges are applied would pay for the extra work.

I don't see grounds for a legal battle here. If someone challenges the panel ruling, the State Police can invoke the fact that they can be legally charging full price for these rescues and if the rescuees really want to pay for what the rescue REALLY cost, then they are more than welcome to argue about the relatively tiny $1000 or $500 charges. 8)

The tough part is actually having some sort of incentive to actually pay the $1000 or $500 fines.



Of course there is still a cost for events where prepared skiers and riders need rescue. However, those events are few and far between. We are taking about trying to create a deterrent for the huge numbers of idiots that are just skiing off out of bounds with no regard for anyones safety.

So if the state police are going to be the only ones involved, who is going to make a determination about the answers given in question 1? It's a great idea in theory but this would never work. The only far way to do it in your scenario is that every case would be split down the middle (in your example $750)

 

[MadMadWorld]

In most cases, ski patrols (most of them are not paid) and volunteers will be part of the search. The analogy to a house fire is not good. Your taxes specifically pay for the fire department and you have an insurance for damage to your goods.

In Europe you can get a backcountry insurance that would cover the cost of helicopter rescue. In New Hampshire, you will be charged in cases of negligence (at least it used to be like that when I was skiing Tuckerman regularly).

Another approach would be to charge a fixed amount on lift ticket price (0.5$ as an example) to setup an across the state search and rescue fund. But in this case, you would be asking every skier to cover the cost for a few irresponsible yahoos.

Ahhh I was wondering why Stowe was so expensive!!:roll:

 

[from_the_NEK]

So if the state police are going to be the only ones involved, who is going to make a determination about the answers given in question 1? It's a great idea in theory but this would never work. The only far way to do it in your scenario is that every case would be split down the middle (in your example $750)

The State Police would have 5 specially trained officers around the state. One of these officers would respond to these rescue events. They would be the ones responsible for conducting the interview(s). The officer would then take the answers to the rest of the panel that would consist of 2 or 3 high ranking ski patrol members and maybe a resort representative. The officer is likely not familiar enough with the mountain to determine the validity of answers to question 1. He/she would simply understand the entire procedure and sort of run/advise the panel session as they discuss the answers.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Ultimately I dont think this is a situation that needs a proposal. I dont think that spending 350k to potentially save 45 lives is so out of this world and financially crippling that it requires a solution. I mean, my 45 mil a year company saved almost that much just in reducing paper/recycling waste this past year. Imagine on a state level.

Cut spending? Pssssssssshhhhh

 

[snowmonster]

I don't like backcountry insurance. I think everyone should be liable to cover the rescue costs or at least a should get a hefty fine.

Because I think people should cover rescue costs and should get fined, I think having backcountry insurance is a good idea. Having insurance and taking on personal responsibility are not inconsistent because, even if I have insurance, any payment is coming out of my account. If anything, I showed prudence by paying for insurance to defray the costs of my rescue and/or the fine.

I find it curious that so many advocate the libertarian approach of letting anyone hit the backcountry, but are quick to say that others should incur the cost for rescue.

This is a statement I agree with. We want the freedom of the hills but not the consequences that come along with that freedom.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

Given this:

Culture is producing an increasing number of people who think they have skills that they don't actually have. When everyone in the league gets a trophy, people actually start to believe they can achieve whatever they want with no effort.

and this:

Education is also a deterrent, one that does not entangle with the monopoly on the use of force.. What happens if someone is unable or unwilling to pay the fine (tax)? Off to the rape cage?

Why do some people think they can go into the BC when they have no experience or knowledge?

Ski Porn.

Every teenager who watches films TGR, Meathead, Level 1, etc. is going to want to go out and have fun. It's hard not to watch the films and not want to do it yourself regardless of how impressionable your mind might be. I say this is one factor which has inexperienced people pushing out of bounds.

I'm sure in many cases those being rescued don't watch ski films and are just a holiday/casual skier who went into the woods so this doesn't apply. Ski production companies could put more educational segments in their films about BC safety and preparedness. TGR does this to a certain level.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Does anyone know what a typical rescue cost regardless of what the proposed fine here would be?

I'm not sure about the pictures of past rescuees as deterrent. Between that and a interview/question session/interrogation by Police and Patrol you make it sound as if skiers, even if they are ill-prepared for BC and shouldn't be out there, are criminals who are breaking a law.

If you leave a helicopter out of the equation, my educated guess would be around 1,000-3,000 but that depends on a lot of variables.

 

[RootDKJ]

Education only educates the willing (see gregnye's post above about stupid people). There has to be a penalty for not learning (e.g. bad grades). You have pointed out the one sticky point with my plan. How do you actually get someone to pay? Is it like the parking ticket I got in Boston 10 years ago that I never paid?

Has any attempt to legislate people from doing unwise actions ever been effective?

 

[thetrailboss]

Just an educated guess:

10 fireman/policeman working overtime - 1000$/per hour
gas/mileage/use of car/truck - 1500$
outdoor equipment - radio, snowmobiles, skis, lamps 1000$

and potentially:
helicopter time - 1500$ per hour
transfer to hospital - 1000$

I would think a very simple search and rescue operation would easily be in the 5 to 10k range and anything more complex/long in the 20 to 50k range.

See my earlier post. NH Fish and Game typically come in at $15-20k or so if choppers and lots of manpower are used and it is a short 1-2 day project.

As to NH's motives for charging folks, though they say it is a deterrence for stupidity, the real truth is that they just don't have the fiscal resources to go after lots of lost folks, so the department is using this as a cost shift. NH is like that...not much in terms of government services.

VT has a fine and that is for deterrence, but the talk about charging folks is the same cost shift, plain and simple. VT already has a large budget shortfall and no real additional ways to raise "revenue" (taxes).

Both states' officials will probably go on and on about deterrence but, like NH's refusal to let go out liquor outlets, it's not so much about the safety/deterrence/policy as it is about the damn money. Let's be honest.

As to my thoughts: I agree that we expect public services for our tax dollars. The problem is that folks who drive up from out of VT and NH DON'T PAY the local state government's taxes, fees, etc. As a result, state residents have to foot the bill for more and more rescues of folks outside of the state who generally don't know what they are doing or where they are. That is what the policy is trying to address.

Someone in another thread talked about rescue insurance that is offered in the Alps. Maybe things need to go that way.

 

[MadMadWorld]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533641,00.html

At the end of the article it said that NH in that year spent 175,320 dollars on 131 missions in that fiscal year. That is approx $1,338.20 per rescue. Pretty crazy about the guy in the piece though

 

[Mpdsnowman]

There used to be a sign at Powder Mountain in Utah that said "minimum fine for helicopter rescue is $12,000.00.

Ive always viewed any bc excursions be it on a board or hiking thru the daks, like I do any boating excursions. It doesnt matter how long ive done it, what matters is I respect it and always be on guard to expect the unexpected.....

As these resorts get more filled up people will venture into the woods. Most of the time Ive seen them along the way as a result of simply talking to a local on the chair....

 

[thetrailboss]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533641,00.html

At the end of the article it said that NH in that year spent 175,320 dollars on 131 missions in that fiscal year. That is approx $1,338.20 per rescue. Pretty crazy about the guy in the piece though

OK that's assuming the average was the real cost. We only hear about the big ones, and the ones that are generally reported, which have been in that $15-20k range.

 

[AdironRider]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533641,00.html

At the end of the article it said that NH in that year spent 175,320 dollars on 131 missions in that fiscal year. That is approx $1,338.20 per rescue. Pretty crazy about the guy in the piece though

I gotta say, thats by far and away the best bang for life saved buck in terms of us the taxpayer footing the bill. Im cool with that.

 

[fbrissette]

Given this:

Ski Porn.

Every teenager who watches films TGR, Meathead, Level 1, etc. is going to want to go out and have fun. It's hard not to watch the films and not want to do it yourself regardless of how impressionable your mind might be. I say this is one factor which has inexperienced people pushing out of bounds.

Yup. I think this is part of the problem. Everything is more extreme nowadays. And not just in skiing. When I was a kid, you would lose your ticket if you were to do a jump anywhere on the hill Today they build parks so that kids can easily be upside down.

With these movies, hitting a 20 footer is not good enough unless you add a backflip or a 360. Good powder and good ledges are mostly found in the backcountry so there you go. Going backcountry is awesome but there is a definite need to better educate kids about backcountry dangers and responsibilities.

 

[MadMadWorld]

OK that's assuming the average was the real cost. We only hear about the big ones, and the ones that are generally reported, which have been in that $15-20k range.

The numbers that were provided we're from NH Fish & Game for the entire fiscal year of June 2008 to June 2009. I just simply took the number of missions that were completed by the total cost. Obviously, there are some outliers like the one discussed in the article. I would imagine rescues out where you live are much more then here. Helicopters aren't all that useful in New England rescues unless you are somewhere that is above treeline (I.e. Mt Washington) because there would be no place to land. Snowmobiles are a lot more useful out here.