WCAX: 45 Lost Skiers and Riders in the Last Two Weeks Concern Vermont Officials

[from_the_NEK]

Yup. I think this is part of the problem. Everything is more extreme nowadays. And not just in skiing. When I was a kid, you would lose your ticket if you were to do a jump anywhere on the hill Today they build parks so that kids can easily be upside down.

With these movies, hitting a 20 footer is not good enough unless you add a backflip or a 360. Good powder and good ledges are mostly found in the backcountry so there you go. Going backcountry is awesome but there is a definite need to better educate kids about backcountry dangers and responsibilities.

It's all about the GNAR!

And these days no one bothers to be responsible unless it is going to cost them money.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Why do some people think they can go into the BC when they have no experience or knowledge?

Ski Porn.

Every teenager who watches films TGR, Meathead, Level 1, etc. is going to want to go out and have fun.

I think the danger of ski porn is to the people making ski porn. Every year it seems they need to go "bigger" etc.. to best other peoples movies and shots. Last year's Warren Miller movie I said someone is going to get killed soon. These "Extreme skiing films" are honestly getting ridiculous.

That said, I doubt it plays much of a part in people's desire to ski backcountry. I think the recent exposition of legal, on-map gladed skiing, and the perception that that form of skiing/snowboarding is the "cool" skiing and snowboarding, is much more of a culprit.

I gotta say, thats by far and away the best bang for life saved buck in terms of us the taxpayer footing the bill. Im cool with that.

Yeah, $1,338 per average rescue is less than I would have guessed.

But it may be logical if you think about it. We only hear about the dramatic rescues with a "story" to them because that's what the media picks up on, and those extensive multi-hour searches likely cost thousands of dollars. But many rescues captured in those statistics that sound impressive from a numeric standpoint also likely include plenty of 25 minute or 1 hour searches to find panicking dumb-people who are no more than 1/8 mile out-of-bounds.

 

[thetrailboss]

The numbers that were provided we're from NH Fish & Game for the entire fiscal year of June 2008 to June 2009. I just simply took the number of missions that were completed by the total cost. Obviously, there are some outliers like the one discussed in the article. I would imagine rescues out where you live are much more then here. Helicopters aren't all that useful in New England rescues unless you are somewhere that is above treeline (I.e. Mt Washington) because there would be no place to land. Snowmobiles are a lot more useful out here.

FWIW I have only lived in Utah for less than two years and I was referring to rescues I knew of and heard of while living in VT for 30 some-odd years. These rescues were in the Presis that involved choppers. And yes, we only really hear about the outliers, which involve huge costs.

 

[noreasterbackcountry]

Yay! A "should we charge for rescues" thread! I didn't get enough of these on Views from the Top.

First things first, can anybody put that number in perspective? ie. 45 out of 100 skiers getting lost is a lot different from 45 out of 100,000. One is a pretty big problem, and the other is an acceptable public safety cost given the revenue that many skiers generate for the state.

Secondly, I don't like the disincentive created by charging for rescues as it pressures people into waiting to ask for help, which only makes matters worse, and can increase the likelihood somebody gets killed out there. (including the rescuers)

Is public shaming a viable alternative?

 

[AdironRider]

Yay! A "should we charge for rescues" thread! I didn't get enough of these on Views from the Top.

First things first, can anybody put that number in perspective? ie. 45 out of 100 skiers getting lost is a lot different from 45 out of 100,000. One is a pretty big problem, and the other is an acceptable public safety cost given the revenue that many skiers generate for the state.

Secondly, I don't like the disincentive created by charging for rescues as it pressures people into waiting to ask for help, which only makes matters worse, and can increase the likelihood somebody gets killed out there. (including the rescuers)

Is public shaming a viable alternative?

Stone him!

 

[ScottySkis]

I'm sure ski patrollers do like to perform rescues. However, when those rescues start becoming a daily/nightly occurrence as they have recently, they get annoyed with them.
That said, in order for my deterrent fine system to work. The resorts have to put a more work into it as well. They would need to have signs at lifts, ticket windows, and commonly used side country access points that if you require rescue you could be fined up to $1000 dollars by the State of Vermont (I'm comfortable letting the state take the image hit for the policy rather than the resort). The resorts should also make sure the boundaries are clearly marked. I know that when I ski at Jay, even the boundary on the Dip/Orchard side of Timbuktu is very hard to miss. I'm curious if Scotty knew when he left the resort boundary during his escapade?

No I didn't know into I got to the flats. Then it wad getting dark out. I had to walk through a river and my glove was wet. I was pretty scared my friend was a boy Scot so he was better then me and got me through it. It was about 9 pm maybe when we got to the road. The whole car road trip home 4 hours, me and my friend barley said a word.

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[thetrailboss]

Yay! A "should we charge for rescues" thread! I didn't get enough of these on Views from the Top.

First things first, can anybody put that number in perspective? ie. 45 out of 100 skiers getting lost is a lot different from 45 out of 100,000. One is a pretty big problem, and the other is an acceptable public safety cost given the revenue that many skiers generate for the state.

That goes to my point though in that neither VT nor NH have the money to fund such rescues. If Joe Blow drives up from Boston, buys a lift ticket, and gets lost and needs a $10,000 rescue, you can't tell me that his "revenue" to the state (say it was 10% of the lift ticket, which would be less than $10) covers these costs. That's the problem--there's not enough resources left. Obviously my example is skewed because there are hundreds, thousands who pay the "revenue" to ski and don't get lost, but the agencies will tell you that they ain't getting the money and are getting cuts. Obviously where the money goes from the "revenue" is a policy decision and discussion, but the rescue services folks are being asked to do more with less.

Secondly, I don't like the disincentive created by charging for rescues as it pressures people into waiting to ask for help, which only makes matters worse, and can increase the likelihood somebody gets killed out there. (including the rescuers)

Is public shaming a viable alternative?

FWIW I have not been lost at a resort in Europe, but don't they charge folks there for rescues? I may be wrong on that, but I base it on the "rescue insurance" we discussed some time back. If they do charge, the whole "disincentive" argument doesn't seem to be an issue.

And, FWIW, some of the higher profile cases, such as the Eagle Scout from MA a few years ago who thought he could do a Presi Traverse in winter in a single day and got in big trouble, do have a pretty big public shaming component to them! As an Eagle, that guy really embarrassed me!

 

[BenedictGomez]

That goes to my point though in that neither VT nor NH have the money to fund such rescues. If Joe Blow drives up from Boston, buys a lift ticket, and gets lost and needs a $10,000 rescue, you can't tell me that his "revenue" to the state (say it was 10% of the lift ticket, which would be less than $10) covers these costs. That's the problem--there's not enough resources left.

You do realize that without tourism, the entire State of Vermont would be completely SOL? I'd think a little perspective is warranted here in that perhaps the other 414,282 Massachusetts skier visits during the year helped "chip in" to cover some of Vermont's cost. I'm not trying in any way to belittle this issue, but I genuinely am not seeing the logic. You cant simply separate all negative costs of business from all positive attributes of business.

Besides, when I lived up there the great State of Vermont did such a fantastic job of wasting the money from its' citizens paychecks, that I doubt these rescues are much more than a drop in that bucket. Way bigger fish could be fried first. Perhaps make them cover 10% of their rescue as a "think twice you idiot" deterrent, but having a kid pay $25,000 for what seems to be an honest mistake (as opposed to a green circle back country vigilante) seems ridiculous.

 

[ScottySkis]

You do realize that without tourism, the entire State of Vermont would be completely SOL? I'd think a little perspective is warranted here in that perhaps the other 414,282 Massachusetts skier visits during the year helped "chip in" to cover some of Vermont's cost. I'm not trying in any way to belittle this issue, but I genuinely am not seeing the logic. You cant simply separate all negative costs of business from all positive attributes of business.

Besides, when I lived up there the great State of Vermont did such a fantastic job of wasting the money from its' citizens paychecks, that I doubt these rescues are much more than a drop in that bucket. Way bigger fish could be fried first. Perhaps make them cover 10% of their rescue as a "think twice you idiot" deterrent, but having a kid pay $25,000 for what seems to be an honest mistake (as opposed to a green circle back country vigilante) seems ridiculous.

I live in NY our government waste lots of money to, all the states do, that is not helping our economy one bit.

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[from_the_NEK]

First things first, can anybody put that number in perspective? ie. 45 out of 100 skiers getting lost is a lot different from 45 out of 100,000. One is a pretty big problem, and the other is an acceptable public safety cost given the revenue that many skiers generate for the state.

It isn't acceptable to me and according to the latest story on WCAX, the recent spike in lost skiers isn't acceptable to the rescuers either. http://www.wcax.com/story/20549092/police-concerned
Additionally, to me this just isn't about the cost of the rescue but rather the perception that skiing out of bounds and getting lost carries no consequences. Under the current system, the irresponsible skiers/riders ski out, get lost make a phone call, and are often back in the condo by evening sipping hot chocolates over tales of their extra gnarly day. No skin off thier teeth.

Would it be acceptable if 1 out of every 1000 Vermont tourists that came to Boston, took a Duck boat cruise and jumped out because they thought it would be fun to try to swim to shore?

Secondly, I don't like the disincentive created by charging for rescues as it pressures people into waiting to ask for help, which only makes matters worse, and can increase the likelihood somebody gets killed out there. (including the rescuers)

Is public shaming a viable alternative?

On the flip side, maybe that same pressure about knowing they will get charged for their rescue will keep them from going out of bounds in the first place.
Maybe my $1000 and $500 fines are too high. Let's lower the amount to $500 and $200. Still a good chunk of change but I feel it would still be a deterrent to irresponsible out of bounds skiing.
Scotty, you said the dispatcher told you you would have to pay (an unspecified amount) for your rescue if you couldn't get yourself out. Would you have paid a flat $500 fine to be rescued?

Public shaming is definitely viable in my book. Unfortunately, I could see some of these idiots being proud to have their names and pictures on the wall. "Dude, that day was epic. Dropping that (5 foot) cliff band off the backside was totally worth getting lost and having to be rescued!" Gotta hit these guys in the pocket.

 

[thetrailboss]

On the flip side, maybe that same pressure about knowing they will get charged for their rescue will keep them from going out of bounds in the first place.
Maybe my $1000 and $500 fines are too high. Let's lower the amount to $500 and $200. Still a good chunk of change but I feel it would still be a deterrent to irresponsible out of bounds skiing.

EXACTLY. They think, "gee, if I get lost all I have to do is call 911." This, and the realization that just because you carry a cell phone, you are not prepared for backcountry skiing. This is not Boston Commons, where police and rescue are minutes away. Folks who don't spend time in the woods just don't get that and need to learn to be responsible for themselves.

 

[thetrailboss]

You do realize that without tourism, the entire State of Vermont would be completely SOL? I'd think a little perspective is warranted here in that perhaps the other 414,282 Massachusetts skier visits during the year helped "chip in" to cover some of Vermont's cost. I'm not trying in any way to belittle this issue, but I genuinely am not seeing the logic. You cant simply separate all negative costs of business from all positive attributes of business.

I'd invite you to think about it again and to have some perspective. Think of it as a state government with 650,000 people to foot the bill for services and everything else, a substantial number of which are not able to pay for much. Now is it fair for Vermonters or New Hampshirites to have to pay thousands of dollars to rescue folks who pay little or nothing for the services that they expect VT or NH to render them? Especially in cases where folks intentionally took the risk with little or no expertise?

And again, being irresponsible is not an "honest mistake."

 

[Mpdsnowman]

It isnt fair that they have to pay for it however because the mountains are in their state....unfortunately they will......One way or the other.....Its called inherent liability....and unfortunately it creates a gap between liability, irresponsible and an honest mistake

edit:
And to me here is another catalyst of this senario....These internet forums...No offense here but Jersey cowboys and people from the NY Metro and surrounding cities are all over these internet forums and when they read posts and view images of where we go and what we do.....they instantly want to do it and they do! Then they get lost...

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

That said, I doubt it plays much of a part in people's desire to ski backcountry. I think the recent exposition of legal, on-map gladed skiing, and the perception that that form of skiing/snowboarding is the "cool" skiing and snowboarding, is much more of a culprit.

To say media has no influence is being a bit blind. The very perception you mention about skiing the trees being "cool" comes from somewhere.

Skiing fresh powder through the trees is a pretty common theme in ski films. As is hitting huge park features. 20 years ago parks weren't even on the radar of most resorts. Deemed dangerous. Now parks are giant and every kid wants in. Do you think this isn't a result of the media?

I'll be the first to admit watching these films is inspiring and makes me want to head out in search of unexplored powder.

 

[MadMadWorld]

EXACTLY. They think, "gee, if I get lost all I have to do is call 911." This, and the realization that just because you carry a cell phone, you are not prepared for backcountry skiing. This is not Boston Commons, where police and rescue are minutes away. Folks who don't spend time in the woods just don't get that and need to learn to be responsible for themselves.

I will say it's a very fine line. Charging people will deter people from calling right away. I had a hiking close call once and it was almost pitch black by the time my wife and I got back to our car. I held off on calling because of the cost of a resue.

On a side note, these skiing apps that mark track your runs could really save a lot of lives. I highly recommend anyone going into the side country or backcountry to download one of the apps out there.

 

[fbrissette]

To say media has no influence is being a bit blind. The very perception you mention about skiing the trees being "cool" comes from somewhere.

Agreed. A lot of what is reported in the sports media (outside of professional sports) is about extreme sports - X-games, RedBull rampage, crash-ice etc. Extreme is cool. Extreme is not found on groomed runs. Extreme is found in the park and out of bound. I go with the flow. Although I'be been backcountrying for the past 20 years, I now ski 'more extreme' (relatively speaking) in my forties then when I was in my twenties.

 

[SnowRock]

First things first, can anybody put that number in perspective? ie. 45 out of 100 skiers getting lost is a lot different from 45 out of 100,000. One is a pretty big problem, and the other is an acceptable public safety cost given the revenue that many skiers generate for the state.

This is absolutely correct in my mind because I don' think its enough to simply say its not acceptable or a cause for concern. If you don't quantify the magnitude or understand the scope of the problem.. how can you determine what is or isn't an appropriate response?

Because to me, something like this:

The State Police would have 5 specially trained officers around the state. One of these officers would respond to these rescue events. They would be the ones responsible for conducting the interview(s). The officer would then take the answers to the rest of the panel that would consist of 2 or 3 high ranking ski patrol members and maybe a resort representative. The officer is likely not familiar enough with the mountain to determine the validity of answers to question 1. He/she would simply understand the entire procedure and sort of run/advise the panel session as they discuss the answers.

Appears like something that is going to create a new "line-item" on a budget. I read special training, special panel and think of the state police dispatching a specially trained officer to every incident and hosting a panel like something that is going to cost a lot of $$. If funding is so dire and the cost so great that the states can't handle, perhaps pursue adding a SAR surcharge to lift tickets is more appropriate. Yeah it sucks to be the many paying for few.. but seems like a few pennies might cover the total cost.

 

[skiur]

another two lost on tuesday:

KILLINGTON, Vt. -

More lost skiers at Killington Mountain are leaving state police frustrated and draining resources.

State police got a 911 call at about 4:30 p.m. Tuesday from two skiers who had intentionally skied off the main trails and were now lost.

Trevor Smith and Christopher Feehan, both 21, of New Jersey, had become separated from each other, and Smith said he was not doing well. State police tracked them down with GPS, but during the process Smith began experiencing serious fatigue, became incoherent and passed out.

Killington ski patrol sent four people out and brought the two skiers out at around 10 p.m. Both were checked out medically and released.

State police said in a statement:

"This year has seen an unacceptable amount of skiers, primarily at Killington Mountain, intentionally leaving the marked trails and eventually having to call for assistance to get out of the woods. This places a large drain on State Police uniform and dispatch resources and the State Police will be looking to work with Killington Mountain in an effort to curtail these reckless and poorly thought out acts by skiers who are not physically/mentally prepared to deal with the harsh Vermont winter conditions they face upon getting lost."

 

[Mpdsnowman]

And you know whats sad...those two jersey cowboys are going to go home and tell everyone what a time it was and next year they will probably do it again....because they got out.....and unfortunately bring more cowboys with them because they think they know the area...

Something tells me Kill is going to have their own police force of some sort...

 

[MadMadWorld]

And you know whats sad...those two jersey cowboys are going to go home and tell everyone what a time it was and next year they will probably do it again....because they got out.....and unfortunately bring more cowboys with them because they think they know the area...

Something tells me Kill is going to have their own police force of some sort...

Oh the stereotype is so true.