mbedle
Well-known member
From what I have read, I would venture to say that Stowe does not lose money every year. A Forbes articles has the president (circa 2008) stating that Stowe "now lives within its cash flow".
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2016/2017 Season Passes
- Thread starter VTKilarney
- Start date
dlague
Active member
I looked at Stowe's passes and do not like the fact that they do not give military at least the same discount as college students. In fact, there are not many in NE.
mbedle
Well-known member
I don't see any discount for military on Stowe's passes. They do typically give military and their entire family 4 free days to ski every year and cheaper daily lift ticket rates for military members only (excluding the family).
steamboat1
New member
So what does that mean? They break even in a good year. That's some business model, especially with all the cash they've had flying around.
That is the business model for pretty much all major Eastern ski resorts.
Fifteen years ago when Spruce was proposed the mountain made their act 250 case that they either needed to get with the times and add slopeside lodging and amenities for additional revenue sources or cut way back on snowmaking and length of season.
The addition of the Spruce development with a lot of it financed by real estate sales has increased their revenue streams to make money during an average year including covering the interest on the debt associated with the asset creation. Last year from what I've heard was not one of those years.
Not a lot of money to be made in the Eastern ski business unless you time things right regarding real estate demand/pricing.
Fifteen years ago when Spruce was proposed the mountain made their act 250 case that they either needed to get with the times and add slopeside lodging and amenities for additional revenue sources or cut way back on snowmaking and length of season.
The addition of the Spruce development with a lot of it financed by real estate sales has increased their revenue streams to make money during an average year including covering the interest on the debt associated with the asset creation. Last year from what I've heard was not one of those years.
Not a lot of money to be made in the Eastern ski business unless you time things right regarding real estate demand/pricing.
steamboat1
New member
No the problem was they drew to much water from local streams during the snowmaking season which limited their snowmaking capabilities. They were only allowed to draw a limited amount at any given time. Building a 100+ million gallon holding pond solved that problem. They could now hold a sufficient water supply that wasn't all drawn at once. Without that pond they'd still have the same problem today slopeside amenities & all.
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Very true, but the slopeside amenities were always part of the mix to fund snowmaking expansion AND compete with Stratton, Okemo etc that had slopeside lodging. The real estate development was planned both for additional revenue generation and to cover snowmaking expansion costs. They originally were talking about running a pipeline out to Waterbury Reservoir modeled after what Killington was doing with their pipeline to Woodward reservoir.
steamboat1
New member
Killington doesn't have any slopeside lodging yet they compete.
No slopeside lodging at Killington? What about the units on Sunrise and the many units you can ski to skiers right of snowshed? Also a huge amount of the lodging stock that isn't ski too at Killington is very close by. At Stowe, outside of the minimal stock they had, all the lodging was several miles away prior to Spruce.
Killington has also talked about building a slopeside village for a very long time so they obviously recognize the value in adding such a product.
My comments are based purely off everything Hank Lunde was saying at the time to sell the project. I lived in town for several years during the permitting process of the project. There were constant articles in the Stowe Reporter around the time and everyone in town spoke frequently about it.
Killington has also talked about building a slopeside village for a very long time so they obviously recognize the value in adding such a product.
My comments are based purely off everything Hank Lunde was saying at the time to sell the project. I lived in town for several years during the permitting process of the project. There were constant articles in the Stowe Reporter around the time and everyone in town spoke frequently about it.
ss20
Well-known member
Spruce better make money!!! For fun and giggles I looked up what it would cost to stay at the Stowe Mountain Lodge the first weekend of February for 2 adults and 2 kids. I was expecting something in the $300 range...I was very wrong....
That's the lowest priced room... a Studio. There were three bedroom suites for $2.5k per night
uke: No matter how much money you have how do you justify that?! $2,500 to sleep in a hotel...you're there to ski dammit!
:rant:
My monetary pet peeves: Paying for parking and hotels. I do not understand how places like Six Flags, airports, city parking garages, heck, even Vail, want you to pay ridiculous sums for money to park your car in an 8' by 12' strip of asphalt. Just me parking alone in a $40 spot for a day in a garage finances the whole thing for an hour I bet... figure 3 guys earning minimum wage to 1) man the gate 2) "monitor" security cameras, and 3) drive a stupid compact car with a flashing light through the garage once every two hours to do a "security check"
And hotels... so people pay $100+ per night for a mattress, lights, water, and basic cable? That is a foreign concept for me. Out of ski season the most I pay is $75/night and that's because it's CT and cheap lodging is i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e to find. Ski season I have my go-to club lodges, but will "splurge" and buy something within walking distance to the lifts if it's under $100 and includes breakfast.
Hope someone read all this and smiled...I hope.
That's the lowest priced room... a Studio. There were three bedroom suites for $2.5k per night
uke: No matter how much money you have how do you justify that?! $2,500 to sleep in a hotel...you're there to ski dammit! :rant:
My monetary pet peeves: Paying for parking and hotels. I do not understand how places like Six Flags, airports, city parking garages, heck, even Vail, want you to pay ridiculous sums for money to park your car in an 8' by 12' strip of asphalt. Just me parking alone in a $40 spot for a day in a garage finances the whole thing for an hour I bet... figure 3 guys earning minimum wage to 1) man the gate 2) "monitor" security cameras, and 3) drive a stupid compact car with a flashing light through the garage once every two hours to do a "security check"
And hotels... so people pay $100+ per night for a mattress, lights, water, and basic cable? That is a foreign concept for me. Out of ski season the most I pay is $75/night and that's because it's CT and cheap lodging is i-m-p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e to find. Ski season I have my go-to club lodges, but will "splurge" and buy something within walking distance to the lifts if it's under $100 and includes breakfast.
Hope someone read all this and smiled...I hope.
Edd
Well-known member
Which means...you were kidding? $75 is rather cheap for a hotel in New England.
mbedle
Well-known member
They do have hotel room at the Lodge for cheaper rates then $600.
Thought that was interesting. As was the "County" deal that included three counties including the one that Jay is located but NOT Chittenden County. Also the price difference between the full and blackout pass was pitifully small.
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+1
That's my limited understanding...that they have certain profit goals that have to be met. Last year being a huge loss is not a surprise.
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steamboat1
New member
Killington does not have any slopeside ski in ski out lodging. If you stay at The Grand (closest lodging) you have to slop across a long bridge to get to Snowshed. At Sunrise you have to ride a chair then take a long traverse to get to Bear. Any of the condo's along West Hill Road require that you either take a shuttle or a car to get to the slopes (you can ski back to some with enough natural snow). The only semi ski in ski out lodging available is along lower Great Eastern going down to Skyeship base which is only open a couple of months a year at best.
Stowe has had many ski in ski out condo units available near the Toll House slope for years.
Stowe has had many ski in ski out condo units available near the Toll House slope for years.
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Jesus dude. I'll say it again. I lived in Stowe while the plan was coming together. I'm well aware of the Toll House facilities. I'm only conveying what the message being conveyed was at the time.
drjeff
Well-known member
Ski areas are a business. Businesses need to make money to stay in business, and have gotten creative in ways to make more money to allow them to stay in business, through good and bad years. Some ski areas have succeeded via many changes in their revenue generation models. Many didn't change and are now the topic of many threads in the New England Lost Ski Areas section of Snowjournal.com
machski
Well-known member
Really, no kidding. Do the Toll House Slopes have snowmaking? High speed lift access? No and no. Might as well have been in town then. Killington's current "on mountain" lodging was far superior to what Stowe had pre Spruce development. Killington does all right without the village/ski in ski out just because they have been a mass draw for decades, with an always impressive snowmaking system they could build upon. Stowe had none of that. Without a specific, directed plan to increase revenues, they never would have been able to do what they have with their snowmaking system. Look at Jay, all that developement yet same weak and pathetic snowmaking system with the same coverage. And we know how their financials have gone. Stowe seems to have hit the right balance for the market they are targeting, even if most of us on this board feel that is not us.
dlague
Active member
Those types of pricing models suck, IMO. 20-34 and 35 and up have different models? 35 and up are now families and have greater skiing costs. Including counties but not one of the closer more affluent ones. Or like Burke offering discounts to Canadiens but not to markets south of them with the same population. If they stopped f'n with all these combos and created more neutral pricing then things would be better.
I somewhat disagree even though I know adding family to the mix brings the cost up. I've got many skiing buddies from college who basically gave up the sport after school. The combination of entry level wages after school, significant student loan debt and saving up to buy homes really cuts into available disposable income for that age bracket. Some get back into the sport, many do not. If they don't, then they're unlikely to get their kids on snow. So, I look at those pricing strategies as a means for ski areas to preserve participation.
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