2018/19 Skier visits

[BenedictGomez]

So you think kids are lazy these days? Thanks for illustrating my point.

Why do you assume mutual exclusivity rather than a real chronological decline in maturity & ambition over time?

In Colonial America, 18 & 19 year olds commanded entire regiments, planning & leading some of the most decisive battle charges in history. Others that age commonly owned & ran successful businesses.

In modern America, 18 & 19 year olds live in their parents' basement.

https://www.marketingcharts.com/demographics-and-audiences-81471

So it doesn't appear obvious to me that each generation complaining about the last, doesn't perhaps have a legitimate point.

 

[AdironRider]

Why do you assume mutual exclusivity rather than a real chronological decline in maturity & ambition over time?

In Colonial America, 18 & 19 year olds commanded entire regiments, planning & leading some of the most decisive battle charges in history. Others that age commonly owned & ran successful businesses.

In modern America, 18 & 19 year olds live in their parents' basement.

https://www.marketingcharts.com/demographics-and-audiences-81471

So it doesn't appear obvious to me that each generation complaining about the last, doesn't perhaps have a legitimate point.

Because it just isn't true.

In colonial America the average lifespan was 36 and you had barely had a 60% chance to even make it to 18 or 19. You are going to become a leader by default due to attrition at that age back then. Nevermind slavery was a thing, women couldn't vote, healthcare consisted of a bottle of whiskey and a knife, I could go on.

Each successive generation improved upon that, and it wasn't just due to the theory of evolution. Different circumstances sure, but if kids these days really were like you said they are (millennials are the largest generation ever in terms of population here in America, and make up the largest percentage of the workforce currently) we wouldn't have the strongest economy, with the highest levels of productivity and diversity ever seen in history.

Kids living at home through early adulthood is much more a product of the student loan crisis where kids graduate with a mortgage payment level of student loan debt than a lack of character like you surmise. You also clearly don't know anything about the military if you think guys at 18 & 19 aren't being leaders. You realize almost 5 years of millennials can't even join now because they are too old right?

Now let's look at 5 of the most successful companies out there today. Facebook, Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon were all founded by people under the age of 30. Thats no different than the young bucks like Ford back in the day. If what you said was true, that wouldn't have happened. Hell, if you really believe ambition has decreased over time we would probably all still be hunter gatherers. But pretty much all of history proves otherwise.

We can all complain how kids go about things differently and laugh about it in jest, but since you seem to seriously believe millennials are some completely flawed generation you really just sound like an old guy yelling at clouds. Doing something different doesn't mean there isn't work ethic or ambition, it just means those ambitions are different than yours.

 

[Hawk]

Well in colonial America the average lifespan was 36 and you had barely had a 60% chance to even make it to 18 or 19. You are going to become a leader by default due to attrition at that age back then. Nevermind slavery was a thing, women couldn't vote, healthcare consisted of a bottle of whiskey and a knife, I could go on.

Each successive generation improved upon that, and it wasn't just due to the theory of evolution. Different circumstances sure, but if kids these days really were like you said they are (millennials are the largest generation ever in terms of population here in America, and make up the largest percentage of the workforce currently) we wouldn't have the strongest economy with the highest levels of productivity ever seen in history.

Kids living at home through early adulthood is much more a product of the student loan crisis where kids graduate with a mortgage payment level of student loan debt than a lack of character like you surmise. You also clearly don't know anything about the military if you think guys at 18 & 19 aren't being leaders. You realize almost 5 years of millennials can't even join now because they are too old right?

Now let's look at 5 of the most successful companies out there today. Facebook, Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon were all founded by people under the age of 30. If what you said was true, that wouldn't have happened. Hell, if you really believe ambition has decreased over time we would probably all still be hunter gatherers. But pretty much all of history proves otherwise.

Every generation has their leaders and their innovators. This is not about them. This is about your run on the mill, blue and white collar workers. The general people that go to work. I will agree with your statement that every generation says that about the following generation. But I will add that it is true.

 

[AdironRider]

Productivity levels prove you wrong.



https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/productivity

 

[cdskier]

Productivity levels prove you wrong.

View attachment 25257

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/productivity

I'm young (relatively speaking at mid-upper 30s), but I'm still not quite sure I understand how increasing productivity levels prove anything about laziness. Shouldn't productivity levels naturally increase thanks to technology advancements?

 

[Scruffy]

Now let's look at 5 of the most successful companies out there today. Facebook, Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon were all founded by people under the age. Thats no different than the young bucks like Ford back in the day. If what you said was true, that wouldn't have happened. Hell, if you really believe ambition has decreased over time we would probably all still be hunter gatherers. But pretty much all of history proves otherwise.
.

Point of fact: Three of those companies were founded by Baby Boomers, one by a Gen Xer, and only one by a millennial. All of them primarily used technology invented by those that came before them, some the "Greatest Generation" and the generation before them, and some of it invented by other fellow Baby Boomers; not that there's anything wrong with that, that's the way progress is made; however, so often humans forget that we all stand on the shoulders of those that came before us. It's human nature for each generation to think that they have it all together and that those that came before them messed it up.

 

[Scruffy]

Productivity levels prove you wrong.

View attachment 25257

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/productivity

You can't use those productivity numbers to prove anything other than machinery and automation amplify the amount of work a company can produce with less workers.

 

[AdironRider]

Point of fact: Three of those companies were founded by Baby Boomers, one by a Gen Xer, and only one by a millennial. All of them primarily used technology invented by those that came before them, some the "Greatest Generation" and the generation before them, and some of it invented by other fellow Baby Boomers; not that there's anything wrong with that, that's the way progress is made; however, so often humans forget that we all stand on the shoulders of those that came before us. It's human nature for each generation to think that they have it all together and that those that came before them messed it up.

You can't use those productivity numbers to prove anything other than machinery and automation amplify the amount of work a company can produce with less workers.

1) My references to companies was to Benedict's contention that kids are becoming more lazy and don't start businesses. I used those examples to show that over time, successful businesses are started by the young all the time. If Benedict and your point was true, that wouldn't be the case. History has, and the future will continue to show otherwise.

2) If we still were a manufacturing dominant economy maybe, but that isn't the case, although we are starting to make strides there. Productivity is productivity at the end of the day and with millennials being the largest part of the workforce, you can't have it both ways and say they are regressing, when the economy proves otherwise. Again, just because they are making something differently than they did back in the day doesn't mean they aren't trying or have no ambition. Work smarter not harder.

But keep on keeping on with the kids these days just aren't the same. We've all heard it before and millennials and Gen Z will do the same. Everyone thinks they are the best, it is literally instinct.

 

[Scruffy]

1) My references to companies was to Benedict's contention that kids are becoming more lazy. I used those examples to show that over time, successful businesses are started by the young all the time. If Benedict and your point was true, that wouldn't be the case.

2) If we still were a manufacturing dominant economy maybe, but that isn't the case, although we are starting to make strides there. Productivity is productivity at the end of the day and with millennials being the largest part of the workforce, you can't have it both ways and say they are regressing, when the economy proves otherwise. Again, just because they are making something differently than they did back in the day doesn't mean they aren't trying or have no ambition. Work smarter not harder.

But keep on keeping on with the kids these days just aren't the same. We've all heard it before and millennials and Gen Z will do the same. Everyone thinks they are the best, it is literally instinct.

1) My point? What exactly is my point from what I've posted in this thread? I've only corrected some assumptions made. I've made no claims.

2) Those charts you posted are non-farm based productivity, that includes everything else, not just manufacturing.

 

[abc]

It's human nature for each generation to think that they have it all together and that those that came before them messed it up...
... and the generation after them aren't as worthy.

Fix it for ya!

 

[AdironRider]

Your first three words in what I quoted literally say "point of fact".

My whole point is that every generation thinks they are the best. Whether that is expressed as "kids these days are lazy", or the inverse like you claim. I suppose we aren't really saying things much differently and this is a more glass half full or empty type debate between me and you.

But, machinery and automation do not explain a 500%+ increase in productivity over the span of 50 years exclusively. You claimed otherwise.

 

[Scruffy]

My whole point is that every generation thinks they are the best. Whether that is expressed as "kids these days are lazy", or the inverse like you claim. I suppose we aren't really saying things much differently and this is a more glass half full or empty type debate between me and you.

True. The generational gap cuts both ways.

But, machinery and automation do not explain a 500%+ increase in productivity over the span of 50 years exclusively. You claimed otherwise.

When I say automation I include the information economy, not just robotic manufacturing. I think that may be the disconnect. That 500%+ increase includes things like financials - think of the wealth boom in the market due to information technology over the old telephone call and paper way of trading stock. Think of the high paying jobs in IT. Think of the fact that I can put a seventy year old grandmother ( exaggeration, I know ) on a robotics assembly line and that one person can produce 200 times what one 20yo male could in 1920.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Every generation has their leaders and their innovators. This is not about them. This is about your run on the mill, blue and white collar workers. The general people that go to work. I will agree with your statement that every generation says that about the following generation. But I will add that it is true.

Right, you got what I was saying.

My sense from history is, if you plucked the mean worker from that age cohort out of 1919 versus 2019, the 20'something from 2019 wouldn't fare comparatively well in work ethic & fortitude.

Simply stated, I believe we're getting soft(er).

 

[mister moose]

Consider all the labor law changes in the last 100 or so years.

Look at this photo:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/AddieCard05282vLewisHine.jpg

"Addie Card, 12 years. Spinner in North Pormal [i.e., Pownal] Cotton Mill. Vt." by ​

Lewis Hine

, 1912 - 1913

​

Sure, times were different then, and child labor laws are a change we wouldn't want to reverse. But don't think for a minute it's all the same now as then growing up, or getting and holding a job. My grandmother only got an 8th grade education and went to work. My father went to war. My uncle was on Utah beach in Normandy on D-day, and in his teens faced something all of us have never had to face. Are kids today "softer" than the 12 year old in the above photo? It speaks for itself.

** And last years Vermont skier's visits were released on May 9th, we should see that number fairly soon.

 

[machski]

Right, you got what I was saying.

My sense from history is, if you plucked the mean worker from that age cohort out of 1919 versus 2019, the 20'something from 2019 wouldn't fare comparatively well in work ethic & fortitude.

Simply stated, I believe we're getting soft(er).

I have to agree. What I am seeing from the younger pilots coming into our company are pilots who don't want to fly too much, as soon as the jet is on the ground and owners are off, they are inside on their phones/tablets rather than turning the jet to be ready for the next flight right away. Simply stated, they do not like the long days and lots of flying. Many are doing it now that company incentivized ($$) flight hours, but I feel that will only last so long before we're right back to a certain group dragging feet. I will grent that there are some long tenured pilots who are not millenial and do the same, but I severly doubt even they would pull the crap the younger ones seem to in their first year or 2 of employment.

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[AdironRider]

And I bet you all walked to school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways.

You guys are conflating hardship with work ethic, and they are two entirely different things.

 

[Edd]

You guys are conflating hardship with work ethic, and they are two entirely different things.

Yep, agreed. The same 12 year old girl in that photo posted above that was born in 2007 would likely suck it up and work every day. People generally do what the situation demands. Older people unfailingly say younger folks are soft and on and on it goes...I don’t think much has changed with the human condition.

 

[Not Sure]

Yep, agreed. The same 12 year old girl in that photo posted above that was born in 2007 would likely suck it up and work every day.

Maybe......... if she is not infected with the "Entitlement plague" . I have some younger relatives who work but have taken much longer to mature than had they not been given all the luxuries . Why work ? when you're handed stuff. Not that they don't work , they complain about student loans ." It's not fair" Government should pay " ...... Why should anyone else pay for your damn college ? Some poor warehouse guy has it tough enough now you want him to pay for your tuition? WTF

Rant over

 

[Edd]

Maybe......... if she is not infected with the "Entitlement plague" . I have some younger relatives who work but have taken much longer to mature than had they not been given all the luxuries . Why work ? when you're handed stuff. Not that they don't work , they complain about student loans ." It's not fair" Government should pay " ...... Why should anyone else pay for your damn college ? Some poor warehouse guy has it tough enough now you want him to pay for your tuition? WTF

Rant over

Leads into a different conversation. Government funded education makes sense to me, vocationally or academically.

My anecdotal experience is at the large corporation I work at and I’ve encountered plenty of hard working mid twenties people. The recent cultural sentiment about better work-life balance isn’t something to be held against that generation, IMO. Gen X on down is involved in that and I think it’s good.

I’m Gen X and I certainly do not hold my generation or the Boomers in higher esteem in any way than the younger gens. You’re born into the world you’re born into.

 

[deadheadskier]

Generational discussions comparing the financial hardships of college expenses are dumb.

My father went to Boston College in the mid 60s. Tuition was $1500 a year. Room and Board $1000. He stayed off campus instead renting a room in someone's home for $500 a year and that family fed him.

He was able to put himself through school bagging groceries at $1.25/hr and graduate in 3.5 years with zero debt. He received $0 in scholarship money. Paid full price.

Full boat pricing at BC is $68k per year today. Anyone want to argue a student today without scholarships can pay their way through school at an elite college bagging groceries and graduate with zero debt?



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