2018/19 Skier visits

[cdskier]

Generational discussions comparing the financial hardships of college expenses are dumb.

My father went to Boston College in the mid 60s. Tuition was $1500 a year. Room and Board $1000. He stayed off campus instead renting a room in someone's home for $500 a year and that family fed him.

He was able to put himself through school bagging groceries at $1.25/hr and graduate in 3.5 years with zero debt. He received $0 in scholarship money. Paid full price.

Full boat pricing at BC is $68k per year today. Anyone want to argue a student today without scholarships can pay their way through school at an elite college bagging groceries and graduate with zero debt?

I honestly don't understand how kids today can do it. I didn't exactly graduate THAT long ago and yet the difference between when I was there and now is insane. My school (which was considered a top value) was $18K/year for tuition ($25K/year including room/board, etc) back in the early 2000s when I was there. Today it is 45K/year for tuition alone (and 61.5K/year including room/board). It just boggles my mind. That rate of increase is just not sustainable at all. And I don't think "free" college is the answer either as that just masks the problem of insane rising costs. I'd like to understand what is really driving those drastic cost increases. I doubt they're paying professors that much more than when I was there... Something doesn't quite add up to me.

But I digress...we're getting way off topic now.

 

[deadheadskier]

To expand a bit further on my dad's early life experience. Shortly after graduating BC, he got married, my brother was born and he got drafted. Spent 13 months in Korea at 21-22 years old.

He came back stateside and carved out a nice career in finance after. He got a job as a bank teller when he first got home and was able to achieve an MBA from BC in night school on that salary while paying a mortgage, having a young child to support and my mom's starting teaching salary to contribute.

Anyone want to argue a bank teller today supporting a child and mortgage can get pay as they go for an MBA from an elite college while also living in one of the most expensive markets in the country?

I know I'm bending the conversation away from work ethic towards the cost of survival, but my dad repeatedly tells me how much harder I have it financially compared to what he went through. The cost I paid to educate myself, the cost of my home, the fact that my daycare expense for two children matches my mortgage...those realities are well beyond any monetary stresses he had to deal with.

So, I say after describing this reality: before older folks crap on the youth today for wanting the world handed to them for less work; respect the fact that the financial hardships of young people today is FAR more challenging than what the Boomers delt with.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[Hawk]

And I bet you all walked to school barefoot in the snow, uphill both ways.

You guys are conflating hardship with work ethic, and they are two entirely different things.

No I am certainly not. Just like Machski, I am comparing what I and my peers considered a strong work ethic with what people that we are hiring now think a strong work ethic is. Look I am not pulling my data from the internet. I am talking about conversations and situations I encounter in my job over the last 20 years. People my age did not complain and fight having to stay late. We just did and it and it was expected. If a Saturday was needed to get the job done, it was worked. Not questions. We did not drop what we were doing to answer a text or look at facebook. Hell my boss used to get on me about personal calls if it was not at lunch. I work as a construction manager and have projects going day and night and also on weekends. It is the job and we were always made to understand the rules. The kids we are hiring now do not like the hours, always want to leave early and expect that they will get raises and bonuses. As a manager I find it really hard to reward the ones that complain. I have no Idea what you do for a living but if this is normal where you work then it does not cut it where I come from.

 

[machski]

No I am certainly not. Just like Machski, I am comparing what I and my peers considered a strong work ethic with what people that we are hiring now think a strong work ethic is. Look I am not pulling my data from the internet. I am talking about conversations and situations I encounter in my job over the last 20 years. People my age did not complain and fight having to stay late. We just did and it and it was expected. If a Saturday was needed to get the job done, it was worked. Not questions. We did not drop what we were doing to answer a text or look at facebook. Hell my boss used to get on me about personal calls if it was not at lunch. I work as a construction manager and have projects going day and night and also on weekends. It is the job and we were always made to understand the rules. The kids we are hiring now do not like the hours, always want to leave early and expect that they will get raises and bonuses. As a manager I find it really hard to reward the ones that complain. I have no Idea what you do for a living but if this is normal where you work then it does not cut it where I come from.

^^^This. Then add on top of it the financial difficulties DHS noted for today's college students and one would think if they put themselves through that stress at those costs, they would come out fully driven to excel and do what the jobs required. Instead, you see pushback to yield the type of job/work condition they would want, not necessarily jiving with the one they were offered and accepted employment with.

As to the college costs, I would not argue they are out of control and unrealistic. My wife and I chose to not have kids, but my financial planning factors in helping our sibblings with our nieces and nephews college expenses. Its just gotten too high to expect a family to be able to put their own kids through and still save good early for their retirements. IDK, maybe its just me, but all the financial stressors drive me to work harder and excel.

Sent from my SM-T830 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[abc]

It is the job and we were always made to understand the rules. The kids we are hiring now do not like the hours, always want to leave early and expect that they will get raises and bonuses.

In my job, the "kids" fight to get assigned late night and weekend works! Of course, the 1 and half time pay has a lot to do with that!

But that's only for the junior level employees. Once you're a "professional", the 1 and half pay stops. You can be exploited to work as many hours as your boss see fit. Typically, the bosses who plan works well (and resist unrealistic project plans from above) don't need a lot of overtime. The one's expecting a lot of overtime tend to have projects running chronically behind schedule! So if you're an employee with no say in the project planning, you have the option to work a lot of extra hours for an inapt manager, or not.

I don't get paid 1 and 1/2 time pay. But my manager doesn't ask for a lot of overtime either. More significantly, I have a say in project planning so if I end up needing to work significant overtime, it would partly be my own fault (in "managing my manager").

What I'm trying to say is, the standard work week is 40 hours, give or take. To work occasionally extra is one thing. To do >>40hr regularly, it's only reasonable the employee would also expect extra compensation.

That "extra compensation" may come in the form of bonus or promotion (or "rich" if you're working at a startup). But it typically only comes if your boss is in good standing with the manager above. Typically, projects that are chronically behind schedule wouldn't cut it. So why work hard when you KNOW you won't get recognized because your manager is inapt?

 

[Hawk]

In my job, the "kids" fight to get assigned late night and weekend works! Of course, the 1 and half time pay has a lot to do with that!

But that's only for the junior level employees. Once you're a "professional", the 1 and half pay stops. You can be exploited to work as many hours as your boss see fit. Typically, the bosses who plan works well (and resist unrealistic project plans from above) don't need a lot of overtime. The one's expecting a lot of overtime tend to have projects running chronically behind schedule! So if you're an employee with no say in the project planning, you have the option to work a lot of extra hours for an inapt manager, or not.

I don't get paid 1 and 1/2 time pay. But my manager doesn't ask for a lot of overtime either. More significantly, I have a say in project planning so if I end up needing to work significant overtime, it would partly be my own fault (in "managing my manager").

What I'm trying to say is, the standard work week is 40 hours, give or take. To work occasionally extra is one thing. To do >>40hr regularly, it's only reasonable the employee would also expect extra compensation.

I work for an extremely large Architectural/Engineering/Construction company. We are all salary based employees with no pay for overtime. Most of us have long standing clients that we work with. The schedules are what they are and are provided by the owners/clients. They keep coming to us because we get creative and make the schedule no matter what. That is what we do and why we get repeat business. This is what is explained to the younger workers but they don't get it. It is my understanding and my ethic that there is no such thing as a 40 hour work week. No one works 40 hours and if that is the expectation then your ethic is weak. This is the ethic across the entire construction business community. But it's not all that bad. I get out and ride my bike at least 5 days a week and ski 60 days a year. If I can do that in my 50's then anybody can.

 

[abc]

You guys are conflating hardship with work ethic, and they are two entirely different things.

More than that, some also only conflate "work ethic" with long hours.

In this day and age, it's important to work smart, not just work hard. Get more done in the same amount of time/effort, rather than just staying late.

 

[abc]

I work for an extremely large Architectural/Engineering/Construction company. We are all salary based employees with no pay for overtime. Most of us have long standing clients that we work with. The schedules are what they are and are provided by the owners/clients. They keep coming to us because we get creative and make the schedule no matter what. That is what we do and why we get repeat business. This is what is explained to the younger workers but they don't get it. It is my understanding and my ethic that there is no such thing as a 40 hour work week. No one works 40 hours and if that is the expectation then your ethic is weak. This is the ethic across the entire construction business community. But it's not all that bad. I get out and ride my bike at least 5 days a week and ski 60 days a year. If I can do that in my 50's then anybody can.

Your younger workers "not getting it" could be one of many reasons:

1) they can get the same salary without the overtime elsewhere

2) they don't get to share the profit of the increased work (which the senior employees get?)

3) they don't see any potential for promotion or a long term future in the firm

Base on my own experience, the last reason is probably the biggest probability. It's my personal opinion a professional just starting out will be much better off working in a small outfit. That's all. (And it maybe you're not getting the most self-motivated of the graduates in a big firm?)

 

[Hawk]

No, I started out in a small company and worked my way up by working hard, never saying no and working long hours. I know the gig and have done it all. You are making my point. My experiences are that the younger guys come in, inexperienced and think they can do it better and should get paid as much as the more experienced guys which is never true. In construction you need the experience. They cannot go elsewhere and get the same salary and work less. Profit sharing is voluntary and is given when deserved. Work hard and you will get a bonus on my jobs. Act like you are entitled and get nothing. Also the hard workers get the promotions and work their way up the ladder. That's what I did. Again, NO ONE is entitled to nothing until they earn it.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Maybe......... if she is not infected with the "Entitlement plague" . I have some younger relatives who work but have taken much longer to mature than had they not been given all the luxuries . Why work ? when you're handed stuff. Not that they don't work , they complain about student loans ." It's not fair" Government should pay " ...... Why should anyone else pay for your damn college ? Some poor warehouse guy has it tough enough now you want him to pay for your tuition? WTF

Rant over

I definitely see this becoming a thing. Unrealistic expectations too.

I find the people out of college at my company seem frustrated starting out low, or at the very least, seem to have this unrealistically high measure or opinion of their worth to the company even though they literally have no experience, and just a college background. When I was 22, I knew I knew nothing and had a lot to learn, but some of these folks (not all obviously) seem to think they should start in management.

 

[Hawk]

More than that, some also only conflate "work ethic" with long hours.

In this day and age, it's important to work smart, not just work hard. Get more done in the same amount of time/effort, rather than just staying late.

No your wrong. This is a millennia construct. If you bang stuff out fast and leave early the perception is that you don't have enough to do. And if you take the initiative to work longer hours, people notice and will reward you. Also, if you do bang stuff out fast and use your extra time to text, cruse the internet, shoot the shit with your colleagues, take long lunches, etc. Then that is even worse. I hate to say it but as an employer, everything you are saying make me and most of the management team cringe. I am not at a software company where hours are flex, there is a quiet room to take a nap if you need and long lunches and team building take priority. This is real blue collar work where things are serious and only the hard working people survive.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'd like to understand what is really driving those drastic cost increases. I doubt they're paying professors that much more than when I was there... Something doesn't quite add up to me.

Government. As with many problems.

College tuition is an unsustainable (as you mentioned) bubble driven by access to easy money in the form of ever increasing Federal loans for education. Economics 101. When you flood a given area with cash, it leads to inflation; in this case, tuition inflation, and the expansion of government federal-aid for college has skyrocketed over the last few decades.

And salaries for professors have generally risen.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Oh, one other serious problem?

When "money is easy", it leads to increased demand to grab that cash. I would argue that if you looked at the value and rigor of a college diploma handed out in 2019 it would be less than 2009, which would be less than 1999, etc.... We have entire BS colleges today cranking out sub-par educations.

I read a phenomenal article about a year ago that noted that plenty of colleges today wouldn't consider hiring their own "PhD" graduates to become professors!

Simply put, college is getting "easier" and the degree/product "less valuable".

 

[abc]

No, I started out in a small company and worked my way up by working hard, never saying no and working long hours. I know the gig and have done it all. You are making my point. My experiences are that the younger guys come in, inexperienced and think they can do it better and should get paid as much as the more experienced guys which is never true. In construction you need the experience. They cannot go elsewhere and get the same salary and work less. Profit sharing is voluntary and is given when deserved. Work hard and you will get a bonus on my jobs. Act like you are entitled and get nothing. Also the hard workers get the promotions and work their way up the ladder. That's what I did. Again, NO ONE is entitled to nothing until they earn it.

We're both making the same point.

Young professional can learn a lot more working in a smaller outfit where they're more directly related to the outcome of their work. They also learn a lot more in the process.

Working in a large firm, they don't see the impact of their work. It's a weeding out process. Those who are self-motivated got "motivated" to smaller firms. Only the "lazy" stay at big firms where, their promotion path are often blocked by long time employees, and there's a lot more politics of "appearing" to work hard without achieving real output.

[EDIT] Probably "lazy" is the wrong word. They're just not the self-motivated kind. They maybe the kind who got the job done, and do no more.

 

[BenedictGomez]

One other thing about the "college boom" - Much of this has been promulgated by the lie that, "everyone should have a college education", a dopey statement happily spouted by politicians from both of our major parties.

Not EVERYONE is college material, and we are doing a huge disservice to kids by psychologically making them feel they are "lesser" persons if they dont have a college degree. I find this sentiment as vomitously elitist as I do both false & destructive.

When you shoehorn someone who would be happier and more successful as a plumber or a mechanic into a college education not suited to him/her, you simply saddle them with a largely useless scrap of paper and loads of debt. And for what? Plumbers in this country now make 6-figure salaries. [/rant over]

 

[cdskier]

I definitely see this becoming a thing. Unrealistic expectations too.

I find the people out of college at my company seem frustrated starting out low, or at the very least, seem to have this unrealistically high measure or opinion of their worth to the company even though they literally have no experience, and just a college background. When I was 22, I knew I knew nothing and had a lot to learn, but some of these folks (not all obviously) seem to think they should start in management.

I blame a lot of that on colleges. So many routinely tell their students (and prospective students), "with a xyz degree from our prestigious university you'll start out earning <insert crazy high salary number here> when you graduate". So they leave college and expect just that... While that does happen sometimes, it is more the exception of someone that got lucky and stepping in shit rather than the rule.

 

[cdskier]

One other thing about the "college boom" - Much of this has been promulgated by the lie that, "everyone should have a college education", a dopey statement happily spouted by politicians from both of our major parties.

Not EVERYONE is college material, and we are doing a huge disservice to kids by psychologically making them feel they are "lesser" persons if they dont have a college degree. I find this sentiment as vomitously elitist as I do both false & destructive.

When you shoehorn someone who would be happier and more successful as a plumber or a mechanic into a college education not suited to him/her, you simply saddle them with a largely useless scrap of paper and loads of debt. And for what? Plumbers in this country now make 6-figure salaries. [/rant over]

I could not agree more with this. The whole pushing everyone to go to college thing is nonsense. Personally I think even for people that do belong going to college, we still as a society go "too early" before many people truly know what they want to do for a career.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I read a phenomenal article about a year ago that noted that plenty of colleges today wouldn't consider hiring their own "PhD" graduates to become professors!

Simply put, college is getting "easier" and the degree/product "less valuable".

Turns out it was an except from a book, not an article. I recall I agreed with it so much that I screenshotted it and emailed it to my brother, so I still had it.

 

[JimG.]

As has been noted, our federal government drove college tuition up into the stratosphere when it got into the college loan business. Don't blame the colleges, they did only what any capitalistic entity does, they raised tuition when demand grew. And helped stoke that demand. Caveat Emptor...let the buyer beware.

Yes, many folks would be better served in life by not going to college. I know plenty of younger workers in the trades that are doing quite well for themselves because they thought for themselves and realized were better off going to work as an apprentice plumber or carpenter after high school. And it makes no sense to take out huge loans to pay for tuition unless you are getting a useful degree, i.e. high paying. And it certainly makes no sense to take out huge loans and then never finish your degree. Because you still owe that money.

Which brings me to free tuition and loan forgiveness. Cause a generational issue and then "fix" it by making taxpayers who have nothing to do with creating the issue pay for it. Punishment of the innocent. And a self-sustaining cycle of bailouts and dependence.

So before we vilify people or whole generations of being entitled or lazy let's look first at the financial/governmental environment they are working in.

 

[Scruffy]

When the going gets tough, the tough get going. Yes the financial environment is tougher now than 30 or 50 years ago when our fathers made a living, but some of the young are making it just fine, so why are there so many not? Is it something in the water? the air? No, we are raising, for the most part, children ill equipped to "dig in", and with too much expectation of instant gratification. Now, having said that, of course the world has changed and we do not need as many workers to "feed" the world as we once did: think "automation" in the larger sense ( I'm using feed as a metaphor here ). But that problem is only going to get worse as we continue to automate everything. So, we need the next generation to dig in and solve the problems facing them, and not shy away because they were coddled with the "everyone gets a star, helicopter mom" era of raising kids, which does not seem to be mitigating.

There are a lot of good comments in the above posts ^ in this thread. Are there gross generalizations, and personal experiences that don't translate to all, of course, but you don't get a stereotype without a kernel of truth. I know a lot of business owners who say, "you can't get good help these days". I have known several business owners that have closed up shop because they cannot get the kids to work as they are expected and needed to to fill the positions needed to run the business. In my business (building super computers), I have seen both; a very few of the younger engineers are super stars with good work ethics, most, not so much, and don't dig in to make themselves a star. We all have heard the oft quoted phrase that the young "US American" kids won't work the farm fields, so we need the, often illegal, immigrants to do the jobs nobody else want's to do. There is a kernel of truth to that, but there is also a glimmer of hope in the fact that there is a new generation of young farmers taking up the charge to create the next generation of sustainable farmers, at least in some parts of this country.

So it's a mixed bag. But in general, we, as a society, need to raise kids that are tough, resilient, flexible, and can take rejection without going ape shit. We need to stop coddling our kids and teach then responsibility and respect for themselves and others. We need to get our heads out of the media and stop the vicious cycle of "keeping up with the Joneses/Kardashians" We need our kids to think for ourselves, and make their own life, and not compare themselves to others and get depressed because we don't have that life.

/rant