A new ski for me?

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Dorsal Flexion. Flexion of the ankle resulting in the top of the foot moving toward the body
Looked it up on Google cause I can't find my copy of Professional Skier.

This is relevant because; if he doesn't have a good range of motion he might not be able to flex in his boots, keeping him in the back seat and making it hard to turn at slow speeds. His fore-aft balance which is a product of boot ramp ange and binding delta angle can make this situation worse. I gave him a little test he could do.

Originally Posted by Newpylong
I'm not sure what's wrong with them... they are a very solid platform on the groomers and when carving, but when I slow it down its another story. They seem long and quite heavy. I have trouble turning getting them around, making bumps and trees quite miserable. I think they are wood core, is that the norm now? Would a foam core be lighter, and maybe cut down on the length slightly?

Any other ideas?


Skis seem to be the right length for someone his size. The Volkl 724 Pro isn't a bad ski is it?
Can we assume the skis bases are beveled (not railed) and otherwise tuned correctly?
I'd check out stance and want to hear more about his ski boots before spending $$ some new skis.

I must confess to trying to bait you a little...and the fact that you had to google dorsal flexion supports my initial impression that you've got a ground level understanding of the terms you threw out but not a comprehensive knowledge of how they all work together. Ramp angle, delta angle, forward lean have a circular affect on fore/aft balance...not linear...as in more and more ramp angle doesn't lead to getting your hips further and further forward, at some point you'll end up with too much (of any) and will end up breaking at the waist and dropping the hips back...and into the backseat. You sound like you enjoy this kind of stuff, you probably teach, PSIA member, etc...I'd suggest you look into a MasterFit clinic and get a deeper understanding of how all this stuff fits together, how you can identify it by looking at a skier, etc...it'll make you a better instructor for sure. I'm not trying to pick on you or anything, I've just seen what can happen when someone has read an article in The Professional Skier and starts playing around wth customers boots. Fnd a really good bootfitter (you can start looking at America's Best Bootfitters...google it), buy him/her some beers and pick their brain.
To me it sounds like newpylong is on a ski that's a little too stiff for playing around at slower speeds, in the bumps, trees, etc...its got two sheets of titanal and a beefy woodcore....something without the metal in the same length is going to be more forgiving and user friendly at lower speeds, bumps, trees, etc. Try and demo some of the skis I mentioned earlier...dont just rush out and by them, find the ski that's right for you...adn yeah, go find a good bootfitter and have them check out your fore aft balance too...regardless of the ski issue, being dialed in is key.

 

[skidmarks]

I must confess to trying to bait you a little...and the fact that you had to google dorsal flexion supports my initial impression that you've got a ground level understanding of the terms you threw out but not a comprehensive knowledge of how they all work together. Ramp angle, delta angle, forward lean have a circular affect on fore/aft balance...not linear...as in more and more ramp angle doesn't lead to getting your hips further and further forward, at some point you'll end up with too much (of any) and will end up breaking at the waist and dropping the hips back...and into the backseat.

I was being sarcastic when I said I Googled it!!! My point was if someone didn't understand what "dorsal flexion" meant and didn't have a copy of Pro Skier they could Google it themselves.

A big part of Master Fit is Fore/Aft Balance, unless they've changed their mind since 2005. Master Fit U's Master Course talks a lot about being over the sweet spot of the ski. They talk about how Boot Ramp Angle and forward Lean is key in being balanced. They didn't talk back then about the Delta angle created by the difference in height between the heel and toe piece of the binding combined with the length of the boot. In race gear it's pretty common stuff. They also talk about dorsal flexion and how a lack of it can make it hard to flex your ankles forward in a boot.

My first point was Poor Newpylong should get his kit checked out before he spends more money on new skis. He may be in the back seat and can check this out using the instuctions I gave. If you're too far forward your tails can wash out. Too far back it's hard to carve a turn. Right in zee Middle is cool!!!

Also we don't know if Newpylong is still skiing a pair of SX91 boots. (Pardon me if I missed talk about his boots). Boots are key, he bought new skis 2 years ago what kind of boots is he on? Are they too big??

Master Fit is great stuff just don't drink all of the Kool Aid. Their Insta Print presentation reminded me of a Time Share meeting I had to sit though to get a free lobster dinner.

I could talk about this stuff all day.
Thanks

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

I was being sarcastic when I said I Googled it!!! My point was if someone didn't understand what "dorsal flexion" meant and didn't have a copy of Pro Skier they could Google it themselves.

A big part of Master Fit is Fore/Aft Balance, unless they've changed their mind since 2005. Master Fit U's Master Course talks a lot about being over the sweet spot of the ski. They talk about how Boot Ramp Angle and forward Lean is key in being balanced. They didn't talk back then about the Delta angle created by the difference in height between the heel and toe piece of the binding combined with the length of the boot. In race gear it's pretty common stuff. They also talk about dorsal flexion and how a lack of it can make it hard to flex your ankles forward in a boot.

My first point was Poor Newpylong should get his kit checked out before he spends more money on new skis. He may be in the back seat and can check this out using the instuctions I gave. If you're too far forward your tails can wash out. Too far back it's hard to carve a turn. Right in zee Middle is cool!!!

Also we don't know if Newpylong is still skiing a pair of SX91 boots. (Pardon me if I missed talk about his boots). Boots are key, he bought new skis 2 years ago what kind of boots is he on? Are they too big??

Master Fit is great stuff just don't drink all of the Kool Aid. Their Insta Print presentation reminded me of a Time Share meeting I had to sit though to get a free lobster dinner.

I could talk about this stuff all day.
Thanks

I missed the sarcasm...sometimes the :blink: helps me spot it! Okay, you've got more depth and background in this area than I initially expected. The first post just seemed heavy on the jargon and light on the meat...a little knowledge is a dangerous thing type deal.
I agree with you on the instaprint...I'm an HD vac guy myself...semi weighted mold, fully weighted cast (I've got one in my basement)...the instaprint misses too much of the lateral arch, met arch, etc As for delta angle, I've always had to ski on too many different skis every season (tough job, but someone has to do it) to really be concerned with it in my personal set ups but it is key for the serious gate chaser. As long as I'm dialed in my boot I'm happy. I could talk about this stuff all day too...glad to have another junkie in the gear forum, it can get slow in here.

 

[Geoff]

My first point was Poor Newpylong should get his kit checked out before he spends more money on new skis. He may be in the back seat and can check this out using the instuctions I gave. If you're too far forward your tails can wash out. Too far back it's hard to carve a turn. Right in zee Middle is cool!!!

For most people, an investment in some competent instruction is how you get out of the back seat. Technobabble about dorsal flexion, boot ramp ange, and binding delta angle is a bunch of crap for a low time recreational skier. If you have the wrong body position and don't bend your f'ing knees, you'll end up in the back seat.

 

[riverc0il]

I'm not sure what's wrong with them... they are a very solid platform on the groomers and when carving, but when I slow it down its another story. They seem long and quite heavy. I have trouble turning getting them around, making bumps and trees quite miserable. I think they are wood core, is that the norm now? Would a foam core be lighter, and maybe cut down on the length slightly?

I skied the 724 Pro in a 128 the first year that version of the ski came out. Respectable carver. Not good in the bumps nor is it a good tree ski, IMO. Never skied it in powder. My opinion was it was too much of a power ski that preferred hard pack snow. An ultimate "all mountain ski"... good at everything but great at nothing.

Go wood or foam based on your preference for the ski's performance not based on weight on length. There are plenty of light weight wood core skis that ski at various lengths. Most Volkls are super heavy because they load the ski up with sheets of metal. Same with many other manufacturers. It is no longer just the standard wood versus foam debate.

If you want to ski well in the bumps and trees but also rail on the groomers you are going to have to find your balance point on a very tippy scale. I would recommend demoing a lot of skis. The better a ski performs on the groomers... usually is an indication that bump performance and tree performance will suffer (from my experience).

 

[riverc0il]

Some skis to consider are the Fischer Watea 84 (84mm waist with two carbon fiber I-beams milled into the woodcore to make it torsionally stiff like a ski with metal so it holds on hard snow, but much lighter and more forgiving) Nordica Afterburner, 84mm waist sidewalls, woodcore, but no metal (its the non-metal version of the Jet Fuel) or, if you're looking for something a little narrower check the Nordica Afterburner or Fischer Watea 78...both woodcore sidewall skis with no metal, both have 78mm waists and ~17m radius turns. There are plenty of other good skis out there, but I've skied on all of these and think they're a great mix of edge hold and versatility...and you could probably find last year's version of them in a shop/online. My $.02

I was withholding specific recommendations pending more input, but the Fischer Watea 78 came immediately to mind (or perhaps the 84 if there is a preference for powder performance). I only have experience with the 94, but the 78 or 84 really seem like they would fit the bill here. No experience with the Nordica (HPD is going to have my head one of these days, I swear :lol: ).

 

[skidmarks]

For most people, an investment in some competent instruction is how you get out of the back seat. Technobabble about dorsal flexion, boot ramp ange, and binding delta angle is a bunch of crap for a low time recreational skier. If you have the wrong body position and don't bend your f'ing knees, you'll end up in the back seat.

You are missing the point. These things we've mentioned can prevent you from bending the knees. You can be bent to the end of your range of motion just standing in the lift line.

 

[Geoff]

You are missing the point. These things we've mentioned can prevent you from bending the knees. You can be bent to the end of your range of motion just standing in the lift line.

And you're missing my point. Instead of lapsing into technobabble, you might ask if the original poster has a range of motion issue in their ankles.

 

[skidmarks]

And you're missing my point. Instead of lapsing into technobabble, you might ask if the original poster has a range of motion issue in their ankles.

I think we covered that. I even asked what kind of boots he was on. And he was given a test that he could do at home to see if his equipment put him in the back seat.

Once we know it's not an equipment problem some lessons might be the ticket.

And Geoff looking at your Avatar I would suggest you moving your feet apart.

 

[skidmarks]

I agree with you on the instaprint...I'm an HD vac guy myself...semi weighted mold, fully weighted cast (I've got one in my basement)...the instaprint misses too much of the lateral arch, met arch, etc

Wow, I have one too. HD vacs Rule. The Shop I manage has a SuperFeet Kork set up. I bought into the Aline system too. We carry several brands of trim to fits also. Some systems work better with certain feet than others.

I do boot sole planning/canting for the racers. A good fitting boot is key to skiing well. One of my favorite is the Krypton. It did really well for us. I figured the next step would be to bring in Full Tilt because it's the original. These boots really freeride well.



Looking forward to talking some more tech with you in the future.

 

[Edd]

Back on topic here...

I started skiing on K2 Public Enemies last year and find it to be a fun, very capable advanced eastern ski that you can take out west if you make a trip. It's got a wood core and an 85 waist.

They changed the name this year to Extreme but you can easily find an unused pair a year or two old cheap. That is, if you don't mind ugly skis. The Extreme looks much better, but that'll cost you.

Good luck with your search.

 

[bigbog]

....one or the other..

Moment Comi...(160-136-145, only comes @186)
...or probably more preferable,
Liberty Helix......(135-105-122, *176!)

*EDIT:.....don't take all this "there are more skis!" seriously....too much coffee yesterday..

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

Wow, I have one too. HD vacs Rule. The Shop I manage has a SuperFeet Kork set up. I bought into the Aline system too. We carry several brands of trim to fits also. Some systems work better with certain feet than others.

I do boot sole planning/canting for the racers. A good fitting boot is key to skiing well. One of my favorite is the Krypton. It did really well for us. I figured the next step would be to bring in Full Tilt because it's the original. These boots really freeride well.



Looking forward to talking some more tech with you in the future.

funny...I've been pretty impressed with Aline as well...have them in my boots currently. Its the only other footbed out there that could ever get me off the beds I made on the HD vac. Alines are the best bang for the buck out there and so quick and easy to dial in...had Gordo and the crew brought those out while I was still on the shop floor it would have saved me hours at the round wheel grinder.
I've got a roundwheel grinder at home too...no point having the HDvac without it! Managed to find an old scott boot press...just need a foredom with a 1" carbide ball and I'll have a pretty full home kit.
Flexons have never worked well for me...tried them "back in the day" and I've tried the Kryptons too...but find I'm happier in a more traditional overlap with a little tweaking.

 

[eastcoastpowderhound]

For most people, an investment in some competent instruction is how you get out of the back seat. Technobabble about dorsal flexion, boot ramp ange, and binding delta angle is a bunch of crap for a low time recreational skier. If you have the wrong body position and don't bend your f'ing knees, you'll end up in the back seat.

while you're right, I was giving newpy the benefit of the doubt based on the fact that he used to race. Though I've seen a few former high school heros who were parked in the trunk. Zee hands, zee hands...iz all about zee hands!
Still, after all that's been thrown out here I'm sticking with the skis...the 724 Pro was pretty stiff and burly...like riding a buckin' bronc in the bumps...very diff ski from the 724 EXP. I'm dialed in my boots, the backseat is not my home, and I know I wouldn't have much fun in the bumps on a 724 Pro.

 

[WJenness]

I too am a big fan of the Alines, I have them in my boots as I have pretty flat feet and a lot of boots I was trying on last year were killing the insides of my ankles, the Alines really helped with that.

-w

 

[Newpylong]

Hi Everyone. Thank you for all the great suggestions. I ended up picking up a pair of last year's Trouble Maker's (175cm) for a great price at Jackson's (Norwood, MA). I decided I had to sacrifice something to get the versatility I wanted in the bumps, crud, etc. Gonna hold onto the 724's for the hard pack.

 

[skidmarks]

funny...I've been pretty impressed with Aline as well...have them in my boots currently. I've got a roundwheel grinder at home too...no point having the HDvac without it! Managed to find an old scott boot press...just need a foredom with a 1" carbide ball and I'll have a pretty full home kit.
Flexons have never worked well for me...tried them "back in the day" and I've tried the Kryptons too...but find I'm happier in a more traditional overlap with a little tweaking.

I want a Scott Press TOO!!!!

The new A-Lines are real nice. Your foot will now slide over the top surface and they use a tab instead of the buttons for adjustment. When you have a chance stick your foot in a Full Tilt. I could never get my foot anywhere near a Flexon but the FTs kind of fit me.

 

[skidmarks]

Hi Everyone. Thank you for all the great suggestions. I ended up picking up a pair of last year's Trouble Maker's (175cm) for a great price at Jackson's (Norwood, MA). I decided I had to sacrifice something to get the versatility I wanted in the bumps, crud, etc. Gonna hold onto the 724's for the hard pack.

Great pick, it's a fun ski for sure. What boot did you own anyway?

 

[Philpug]

I skied the 724 Pro in a 128 the first year that version of the ski came out. Respectable carver. Not good in the bumps nor is it a good tree ski, IMO. Never skied it in powder. My opinion was it was too much of a power ski that preferred hard pack snow. An ultimate "all mountain ski"... good at everything but great at nothing.

After skiing an AC4 (and liking them), I picked up a pair of 724 Pros at a swap, but I was truly unimpressed with the ski, felt like a dead fish on my feet, I can see how he feels it is too big. Personally, before going shorter, I would suggest demoing different skis. He is my size and I also think that a 170 would be too short in this type of ski, it is a matter of him finding the right ski in that 175-180 range.

I figured the next step would be to bring in Full Tilt because it's the original. These boots really freeride well.
.

Don't bother with the Full Tilt. Go back in Epic's archives where compare the Flexon (FullTilt) to the Krypton. In the past 25 years of skiing, I have been in 2 boots, a Flexon for 20 and a Krypton for the past 5. The Krypton is a Flexon/FT on steroids, a much more powerful and responsive boot.

 

[skidmarks]

Don't bother with the Full Tilt. Go back in Epic's archives where compare the Flexon (FullTilt) to the Krypton. In the past 25 years of skiing, I have been in 2 boots, a Flexon for 20 and a Krypton for the past 5. The Krypton is a Flexon/FT on steroids, a much more powerful and responsive boot.

Kryptons are a great boot! At www.suburbansport.com You'll see that we carry the Krypton Pro ID,
Krypton Cross ID, Krypton Il Moro ID, Krypton Rampage, Krypton Jakk for the kids, Krypton Kryzma ID, and Krypton Lotus ID for Women. I may have missed a few.

Originally Posted by skidmarks
I figured the next step would be to bring in Full Tilt because it's the original. These boots really freeride well.

So I figured why not bring in the FULL TILTS too and cary both. Makes sense?

PS: Contact me if you want a special AZ price!