Ah, the good old days of reasonable ticket prices...

[hammer]

i'm guessing who's ultimately paying the bills for the lifestyle that is created by many a college these days

If students default on their loans en masse it will ultimately be the taxpayers...:roll:

 

[oakapple]

My own feeling is that modern lift serviced skiing is unsustainable. I have no fact or figures to back this up - its just a feeling I have in my gut. Skiing and ski operations were not started as a means to make a buck but for the love of being outside in the mountains in the snow. It has grown that way because someone saw all these people flocking to the hills and saw dollar signs instead of what the rest saw.

Think of all the ski areas that started as some wing-nut got an old model T engine rigged with a long rope and a bunch of pulleys. Think about how people used to flock to hike up a hill to watch a race or be in that race. Where are those people now?

While there are still lots of skiers and hikers in the mountains today the vast majority want to be pampered. Skiing is an afterthought to these hoards. :flame:

You're romanticizing a misremembered past that never existed. The folks who would ride a jury-rigged rope lift were never all that numerous. Any ski area that went back to that model would lose most of its customers.

If you prefer to ski in areas untouched by the thirst for profit, there are plenty of back-country areas available to you. Good luck with that. Personally, I hold nothing against those who "make a buck," as you put it. Someone who installs and maintains a chairlift for my enjoyment deserves to earn a fair return on his investment.

What you call "pampering" is what other people call "having a good time." I can assure you that when I go to a ski area, skiing is not an afterthought. But it's not inconsistent with having a good place to stay, a restaurant that serves decent food, and a bar where I can relax at the end of a refreshing day.

As the ski industry continues to expand, I see no evidence that it is unsustainable. What I do see is a widening gulf between the "haves" and the "have-nots." Many of the smaller hills struggle to stay in business.

 

[marcski]

My own feeling is that modern lift serviced skiing is unsustainable. I have no fact or figures to back this up - its just a feeling I have in my gut. Skiing and ski operations were not started as a means to make a buck but for the love of being outside in the mountains in the snow. It has grown that way because someone saw all these people flocking to the hills and saw dollar signs instead of what the rest saw.

Think of all the ski areas that started as some wing-nut got an old model T engine rigged with a long rope and a bunch of pulleys. Think about how people used to flock to hike up a hill to watch a race or be in that race. Where are those people now?

While there are still lots of skiers and hikers in the mountains today the vast majority want to be pampered. Skiing is an afterthought to these hoards. :flame:

As far as a college education goes - who can afford to start adult life with a $30 to 40,000 debt? :blink:

Let's play counter-point.

Mt. Peter, NYS's first ski area was actually started by MACY's Department store as a marketing tool for its' winter clothing line. 1

Sun Valley, was started by Averill Harriman, in order to "develop a grand resort". 2

Like you said, there were definitely a huge number of mom and pop ski areas with Model T rope tows and the like. But, unfortunately, look what has become of them.

So, I think, despite my own personal feelings, opinions and preferences, those ski resorts that are out to "make a buck" are probably the ones that are better off financially and will be able to provide a fairly consistent product in the years to come.

Also, I'm not sure where you want to goto college, but $30-40 k in debt....will only get you about 1.5-2 years worth of a degree at a state school these days, let alone a private university. 3


1. http://mtpeter.com/about.htm

2. http://www.sunvalley.com/footer/about/history/

3. http://articles.courant.com/2010-02...hief-financial-officer-tuition-uconn-students

 

[oakapple]

Besides that, when did "making a buck" become a dirty phrase? Most of us here "make a buck" at something.

 

[drjeff]

Besides that, when did "making a buck" become a dirty phrase? Most of us here "make a buck" at something.

Making a buck has become a dirty phrase since there seems to be a feeling amongst some, not all, but some, that they are entitled to get say $1 worth of product, but only have to pay $0.02 (if anything at all) for it. When the day comes that ALL folks associated with what it takes to produce that $1 worth of product, from the folks who cut down the trees to clear the land, to the truck drivers who deliver the parts to the electric company to the town that the property is in, to the people who staff the business all decide to do what it takes to create that business for free, well then the product could be offered for free. Until then, the price people are will to pay for the services offered will determine things, and what is offered for what price will vary from person to person and place to place, and that's all good in my book

 

[BenedictGomez]

Besides that, when did "making a buck" become a dirty phrase? Most of us here "make a buck" at something.

I didnt get that either. You know, as opposed to all the "charity ski resorts"?

 

[steamboat1]

Except for certain degrees and students, I think the smart financial move today for most kids is to spend their first two years at a Community College then transfer into a more reputable institution for their final two years.

This is what I did way back when. At that time the cost of Community College was about $300 a semester. The cost of my last 2 years at a reputable college was about $1200 a semester. I think that today the difference in price between the two is even greater not only on a dollar basis (obviously) but in the multiple factor in how more times the cost is greater at a reputable school over community college. In my example it cost 4 times more. Today I think that multiple factor is far greater so it makes even more sense to attend community college first. I only lost 3 gym credits when I transferred from one school to the other. Obviously at the prices I posted I went to school a long time ago. That same $1200 reputable school I went to is now about $18,000 a semester.

edit: I looked up the cost of what the community college I went to is now. It's $3600 a semester for in state students. I was wrong saying it's far greater a multiple but it is greater.

 

[Abubob]

You're romanticizing a misremembered past that never existed. The folks who would ride a jury-rigged rope lift were never all that numerous. Any ski area that went back to that model would lose most of its customers.

If you prefer to ski in areas untouched by the thirst for profit, there are plenty of back-country areas available to you. Good luck with that. Personally, I hold nothing against those who "make a buck," as you put it. Someone who installs and maintains a chairlift for my enjoyment deserves to earn a fair return on his investment.

What you call "pampering" is what other people call "having a good time." I can assure you that when I go to a ski area, skiing is not an afterthought. But it's not inconsistent with having a good place to stay, a restaurant that serves decent food, and a bar where I can relax at the end of a refreshing day.

As the ski industry continues to expand, I see no evidence that it is unsustainable. What I do see is a widening gulf between the "haves" and the "have-nots." Many of the smaller hills struggle to stay in business.

Yes, I am romanticizing. I'm half Italian - its what I do.

Let's play counter-point.

Mt. Peter, NYS's first ski area was actually started by MACY's Department store as a marketing tool for its' winter clothing line. 1

Sun Valley, was started by Averill Harriman, in order to "develop a grand resort". 2

Like you said, there were definitely a huge number of mom and pop ski areas with Model T rope tows and the like. But, unfortunately, look what has become of them.

So, I think, despite my own personal feelings, opinions and preferences, those ski resorts that are out to "make a buck" are probably the ones that are better off financially and will be able to provide a fairly consistent product in the years to come.

Also, I'm not sure where you want to goto college, but $30-40 k in debt....will only get you about 1.5-2 years worth of a degree at a state school these days, let alone a private university. 3


1. http://mtpeter.com/about.htm

2. http://www.sunvalley.com/footer/about/history/

3. http://articles.courant.com/2010-02...hief-financial-officer-tuition-uconn-students

Massive infrastructure survives while Mom and Pops starve.

Besides that, when did "making a buck" become a dirty phrase? Most of us here "make a buck" at something.

Since about 1989.

 

[riverc0il]

As far as a college education goes - who can afford to start adult life with a $30 to 40,000 debt? :blink:

This is a good point. Cost of education has doubled in the past dozen years or so since I graduated. But entry level jobs outta college have not increased in pay. And the market has certainly depressed entry level wages due to high quantities of potential applicants. It is more likely an over qualified person will accept a low ball offer.

Is college worth it or not? It all depends what you want to do. There is a lot to be said for learning a trade. But if you want to work in a professional environment, you really have to have a college education. For better or worse, you can't get a lot of entry level non-skilled jobs without a college degree as a minimum requirement. And also there are so many other recent college grads competing for the same positions. Someone without a college degree is often dismissed out of hand even if they are well qualified. In most professional environments, a bachelors is still considered the bare minimum entrance requirement. It's a good idea for kids in high school to really consider which path they want to pursue. If they aren't entering a trade or learning a skill, college is certainly the best option vs working part time for minimum wage while trying to figure it out. The debt is harsh but it is not insurmountable.

 

[riverc0il]

OWS was quite literally started by an Anti-Capitalism and pro-Socialism magazine based in Canada. Literally. This is the part of the OWS story that the media underreported or doesn't bother mentioning, almost like they dont want people to know that interesting little fact.

Adbusters is anti-consumerism but to the best of my knowledge they are not anti-capitalism nor pro-socialism. I've read Culture Jam and used to read Adbusters and used to heavily subscribe to that orientation. I never got anti-capitalism nor pro-socialism out of Adbusters but rather it is opposed to mindless and conspicuous consumption with a slant against corporate personhood and certain marketing techniques. OWS may have been launched by Adbusters but it took on a life of its own and is many things to many people. There is a lot of hypocrisy in the movement. When I felt hypocritical is when I moved away from Adbusters and its view points.

 

[riverc0il]

The Community College route for two years and then transferring is solid. You're not going to get anything special taking Gen Eds at a name college vs a CC. In a matter of fact, it's possible you'll get better teaching if you find a CC with teachers there to teach instead of pursuing research and writing papers and books. Definitely a cheaper option and you don't loose anything on the education.

But you do loose something on the social aspect. Much of what is learned in college is learned outside the classroom (especially for those in the softer fields). You do loose extracurricular activities and lots of great experiences. If I had to do it all again, I'd still do the four year University even for a lowly social science degree. But I say that having already paid off my loans which were half as much as today's students have to pay.

 

[x10003q]

The Community College route for two years and then transferring is solid. You're not going to get anything special taking Gen Eds at a name college vs a CC. In a matter of fact, it's possible you'll get better teaching if you find a CC with teachers there to teach instead of pursuing research and writing papers and books. Definitely a cheaper option and you don't loose anything on the education.

You lose something on the education. The quality of the students at CC is generally below that of a 4 year college. While the quality is better than it was even 10 years ago, a classsroom loaded with bottom quarter HS grads is going to slow down even the best teachers (and other more advanced students). Many of the students in my son's HS class who are headed to the local CC cannot meet the requirements of a low level state college.

 

[riverc0il]

You lose something on the education. The quality of the students at CC is generally below that of a 4 year college. While the quality is better than it was even 10 years ago, a classsroom loaded with bottom quarter HS grads is going to slow down even the best teachers (and other more advanced students). Many of the students in my son's HS class who are headed to the local CC cannot meet the requirements of a low level state college.

Yes and no. Four year colleges have used CCs as a testing ground for many students that couldn't make the minimum academic standards. Do two years at a CC then you get into the four year. But the fact is that four year colleges have dropped their standards quite a bit. Teachers in four year colleges are being held back just as much. I really don't think there is much educational difference between a 2 and 4 year intro to academic community, composition, or gen ed social science course. Maybe at more prestigious or much tougher to get into institutions. But joe average state school... you have CC students that are going to excel and former high school honor roll students in 4 year programs that are going to bomb out.

 

[deadheadskier]

The Community College route for two years and then transferring is solid. You're not going to get anything special taking Gen Eds at a name college vs a CC. In a matter of fact, it's possible you'll get better teaching if you find a CC with teachers there to teach instead of pursuing research and writing papers and books. Definitely a cheaper option and you don't loose anything on the education.

But you do loose something on the social aspect. Much of what is learned in college is learned outside the classroom (especially for those in the softer fields). You do loose extracurricular activities and lots of great experiences. If I had to do it all again, I'd still do the four year University even for a lowly social science degree. But I say that having already paid off my loans which were half as much as today's students have to pay.

In my Academic life I've attended one of the most expensive private schools in the country (Skidmore) transferred and got my Bachelors from a large state school (University of Vermont) and now am taking courses at a CC. The sample size is small with having taken just two courses, but the two teachers I've had at the CC are perhaps the two best professors I've ever had and I think it's for the exact reasons you state; they're there to teach, not do research or write books.

As for losing out socially, that's a fair statement. Though, a CC student transferring in their Junior year can still spend a year in the dorms to have that experience and then off campus senior year. They'd still get that experience, though for a shorter amount of time. Personally, outside of lifelong friends and good memories, I'm not so convinced the social aspect is as important as it is cracked up to be.

You lose something on the education. The quality of the students at CC is generally below that of a 4 year college. While the quality is better than it was even 10 years ago, a classsroom loaded with bottom quarter HS grads is going to slow down even the best teachers (and other more advanced students). Many of the students in my son's HS class who are headed to the local CC cannot meet the requirements of a low level state college.

There is some truth to this, but in my experience this past fall, you have a lot of non-traditional students like me in the classrooms. There were many adults looking to make a career change who are serious about their studies. There were many very bright HS grads in the classes as well that I assume are attending CC for financial reasons. I did have some poor quality students in my classes, but they pretty much didn't show up for class and were a non-factor in the progression of the course material. The professors basically gravitate towards those who are committed to their education and didn't allow the bad students to slow down the classes.

 

[bigbog]

..........If you prefer to ski in areas untouched by the thirst for profit, there are plenty of back-country areas available to you. Good luck with that. Personally, I hold nothing against those who "make a buck," as you put it. Someone who installs and maintains a chairlift for my enjoyment deserves to earn a fair return on his investment.

What you call "pampering" is what other people call "having a good time." I can assure you that when I go to a ski area, skiing is not an afterthought. But it's not inconsistent with having a good place to stay, a restaurant that serves decent food, and a bar where I can relax at the end of a refreshing day.

As the ski industry continues to expand, I see no evidence that it is unsustainable. What I do see is a widening gulf between the "haves" and the "have-nots." Many of the smaller hills struggle to stay in business.

I think one answer could be...if there were to be several versions of passes/tickets combining more, fewer, or no "Apre-Ski" adventures/services, both sectors of the economic-scale might be better served.
$.01

 

[mlkrgr]

I remember when you could have a ski and stay at Sunday River for $59/night midweek nonholiday even just a few years ago. During MLK weekend the last year ASC was in existence, I only paid $65 and got pretty good conditions (got everything except White Cap that weekend and only got Jordan Bowl on my second day). Now, midweek nonholiday is $89-115/night for just Snow Cap Inn. A few years ago, it just barely made enough sense to redeem Wildcat vouchers that you could get for free for buying every $250 in Simon Mall CC GCs that could be used anywhere you please.

At least Deal of the Century, while up from $99 to $119 is still quite a good bargain; 2 days skiing plus 1 night at Snow Cap Inn and a breakfast; used to also include a dinner too though for many years.

And price increases on ski buses have largely kept pace with ticket window pricing just that technically you get a ride for what you pay for as they are a bargain in my book unless you're talking about an extreme discount deal day like St. Patrick's Day.

Though, I guess if you need lodging plus lift ticket, best course of action is to book blind via Hotwire or Priceline and try to get a daily deal for a ticket or go during a discount day.

Cheapest and easiest (meaning directly booked w/ the mountain) ski and stay assuming nonholiday midweek these days is $69 at Stratton Liftline lodge.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

I recall paying 1.23 for Gas when I was in high school in 1996

Try 1999, when I was in College I took a road trip to Philly, gas 78 cents per gallon. $11 to fill up my tank.

 

[steamboat1]

I remember when I could drive to from VT. from NYC for a weekend, ski 2 days, 2 nights lodging, eat all weekend & go out partying Sat. night all for less than a $100 bill.

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

You lose something on the education. The quality of the students at CC is generally below that of a 4 year college. While the quality is better than it was even 10 years ago, a classsroom loaded with bottom quarter HS grads is going to slow down even the best teachers (and other more advanced students). Many of the students in my son's HS class who are headed to the local CC cannot meet the requirements of a low level state college.

And yet this 32 year old who was laid off and went back to college, community college, can attest that many of my fellow 17 and 18 year old students are very bright and could go to any college of their choice if not for not wanting to be saddled with huge college debt and enjoy working within there field while going to college. It still cracks me up that one of my college friends wife had to get her masters so she could get a raise..........oh and this masters was so she could teach second graders....what a joke.

Wait, this is a ski thread right?

 

[mlkrgr]

And yet this 32 year old who was laid off and went back to college, community college, can attest that many of my fellow 17 and 18 year old students are very bright and could go to any college of their choice if not for not wanting to be saddled with huge college debt and enjoy working within there field while going to college. It still cracks me up that one of my college friends wife had to get her masters so she could get a raise..........oh and this masters was so she could teach second graders....what a joke.

Wait, this is a ski thread right?

Heck, I got a Masters to get a job and I still don't have a real one yet; I just piece together what I can in contract work to get by and yes skiing is the only thing I splurge on and I really make a good effort to make every dollar count to ski as much as I want to.