Attitash snowmaking - October 6th!

[Birdman829]

A flat tax sounds like a good idea if you have no idea how it would actually work. Two things would happen; the taxes collected by the government would decrease dramatically (meaning they would be running a deficit of about 7 kajillion dollars), and the gap between the rich and the poor would increase even more than it already has.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

A flat tax sounds like a good idea if you have no idea how it would actually work. Two things would happen; the taxes collected by the government would decrease dramatically (meaning they would be running a deficit of about 7 kajillion dollars), and the gap between the rich and the poor would increase even more than it already has.

But if you bust ass to make more money..you shouldn't be penalized with a higher tax rate...even so the people flipping burgers would only pay a little bit in taxes due to no income tax under a certain threshold

 

[threecy]

HOWEVER, you're totally not understanding what I was saying. People who make 80,90,100K and own businesses can expense away their vehicles (In my case about about $15,000 a year, and that's just to start), percentages of their home and on and on and on. Someone who makes 100K can end up claiming 20K in net income when all is said and done deduction wise and pay $3100 in income tax for the year. If your someone's employee, you get NO real deductions other than an RRSP deduction (18% of your income if you contribute...but most "employees" plan taxes so poorly they don't even take advantage of that) and charitable donations resulting in a person who makes barely more than I pay for my car in a year end up paying the same amount of tax as me. The set up is essentially the same in the US. You obviously don't get it because you've never studied taxes.

Actually I've studied taxes a lot - I have a business degree and was on my way to a political science minor (started too late and didn't want to go beyond 4 years).

I don't have recent numbers, but the numbers available when I debated this in 2004 showed that the top 20% paid 80% of all federal income taxes.

Yes, people can hide a bunch of income via clever tax work. Still, the upper tax brackets are initially taxed at a higher rate and pay nearly all of our federal income taxes. The top 50% in the country at that point paid something like 96% of all federal income taxes. These numbers probably have slid down a bit with the tax cuts, but are still likely true.

And how we made it to this tangeant, I don't know, but the ski industry targets the 20% - and of that, the smaller percent who actually ski. Until the ski industry can figure out how to break out of that, it will be roughly business as usual (which isn't really good for anyone).

 

[threecy]

A flat tax sounds like a good idea if you have no idea how it would actually work. Two things would happen; the taxes collected by the government would decrease dramatically (meaning they would be running a deficit of about 7 kajillion dollars), and the gap between the rich and the poor would increase even more than it already has.

The Fair Tax could work, that is if it were possible to unroll it without causing big ripples. Would be interesting to see what kind of effect it would have on the ski industry - suddenly all of these holding companies who own ski areas nowadays wouldn't have the same tax advantage.

 

[snowman]

Actually I've studied taxes a lot - I have a business degree and was on my way to a political science minor (started too late and didn't want to go beyond 4 years).

I don't have recent numbers, but the numbers available when I debated this in 2004 showed that the top 20% paid 80% of all federal income taxes.

Yes, people can hide a bunch of income via clever tax work. Still, the upper tax brackets are initially taxed at a higher rate and pay nearly all of our federal income taxes. The top 50% in the country at that point paid something like 96% of all federal income taxes. These numbers probably have slid down a bit with the tax cuts, but are still likely true.

I have no doubt your information is true. The fact is though, the top 20% claiming $100+ K in income on a tax return likely make triple that and just run out of ways to expense it away. My point was, If you're smart and making 200K or less you can make almost all of your income vanish in legitimate expenses. Over that, it gets harder as it's harder as legitimate business vehicles only cost so much, houses expenses only run so much, you can only take so many trips in a year etc etc.

We got to this point because you said someone making $100 K a year was paying almost half of that to government in taxes and I said that was simply not so. SMART people who make 100K a year get to keep almost every nickel and dime and therefore truly do have $5000 to waste on a season pass as it's their few expense they can't write off (and some even do get away with writing it off if they are in a skiing related industry etc etc!). :-D

 

[threecy]

We got to this point because you said someone making $100 K a year was paying almost half of that to government in taxes and I said that was simply not so.

I actually didn't say half, but there is more to taxes than just the Federal Income Tax. There's (not in NH thank gosh!), state income taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, view taxes, SS/Medicare taxes, capital gains taxes, interest income taxes, and (this is a stretch in the way its recognized, but its true) sales taxes.

 

[snowman]

I actually didn't say half, but there is more to taxes than just the Federal Income Tax. There's (not in NH thank gosh!), state income taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, view taxes, SS/Medicare taxes, capital gains taxes, interest income taxes, and (this is a stretch in the way its recognized, but its true) sales taxes.

True. We've got it pretty good up here, or atleast I do. We have 14% sales tax on everything except groceries and medicines etc, HOWEVER, as a business owner I only have to remit the difference of my sales taxes collected and taxes paid for things used in or bought for my business. That's ANOTHER 14% I save on everything. I think some of the sales tax systems down there are like our old system. Businesses pay it and they have to collect it and remit it MONTHLY. Talk about a pain in the ass. I'm glad that system was only around for the first couple years I owned businesses. I do have to pay property tax, but can expense away half of that as well as business use. Our system is really good to business owners. You'ld honestly have to be on drugs to do anything else in Canada.

 

[Birdman829]

But if you bust ass to make more money..you shouldn't be penalized with a higher tax rate...even so the people flipping burgers would only pay a little bit in taxes due to no income tax under a certain threshold

I'm not talking about the people who bust ass to make 100k a year or something. The problem would be the decrease in money from the ultra high earners.

Still, the upper tax brackets are initially taxed at a higher rate and pay nearly all of our federal income taxes. The top 50% in the country at that point paid something like 96% of all federal income taxes. These numbers probably have slid down a bit with the tax cuts, but are still likely true.

The upper 50% in the country also have about 75% of the country's wealth. I'm not about to feel bad about taking money from people who already have more disposable income than they know what to do with. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, but to me tax policy is about more than just saving myself a buck.

 

[threecy]

The upper 50% in the country also have about 75% of the country's wealth. I'm not about to feel bad about taking money from people who already have more disposable income than they know what to do with. Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, but to me tax policy is about more than just saving myself a buck.

I'd love to continue to debate this, but would be discussing political theory, which is a no-no here.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Alpine Zone should have a seperate politics forum

 

[hammer]

Alpine Zone should have a seperate politics forum

This was addressed already...

http://forums.alpinezone.com/4517-political-discussions-no-longer-allowed.html?highlight=politics

 

[threecy]

Alpine Zone should have a seperate politics forum

As much as I enjoy politics, its probably a smart move not to have them in here - skiing diehards are emotional by nature, adding politics to the situation would lead to a lot more divisions/arguments in here.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

This was addressed already...

http://forums.alpinezone.com/4517-political-discussions-no-longer-allowed.html?highlight=politics

O.K. well there's a politics forum over at www.paskiandride.com definitely some entertaining threads..alot of them about global warming and the war in Iraq..

When discussing ski resorts...politics always seems to come up//

 

[threecy]

Starts out about a snow making event and the subject ends up about taxes :roll: .. talk about your major hijacking ..

Ya, and unless I missed it, nothing about the snowmaking test on Saturday! Anyone see it?

 

[drjeff]

I have no doubt your information is true. The fact is though, the top 20% claiming $100+ K in income on a tax return likely make triple that and just run out of ways to expense it away. My point was, If you're smart and making 200K or less you can make almost all of your income vanish in legitimate expenses. Over that, it gets harder as it's harder as legitimate business vehicles only cost so much, houses expenses only run so much, you can only take so many trips in a year etc etc.

We got to this point because you said someone making $100 K a year was paying almost half of that to government in taxes and I said that was simply not so. SMART people who make 100K a year get to keep almost every nickel and dime and therefore truly do have $5000 to waste on a season pass as it's their few expense they can't write off (and some even do get away with writing it off if they are in a skiing related industry etc etc!). :-D

Actually what happens in many of these scenarios, and it's very often the small business owner that gets affected by this, is something called the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)kicks in with respect to all the expenses. I own my own business and there is a decent percentage of expenses that I legitimately take as a deduction from my tax return (some of it I could possibly have my business pick up, but it would be getting into a "gray" area about is it a full business expense that my business should pay for, or legally does it belong as a write off on my personal taxes. What happens with the AMT is if your deductions are above a specific percentage of your gross income, then you get taxed at the AMT. The AMT is somewhat of an oxymoron as you end up paying a higher percentage than a lower percentage(I remember the first time my accountant told me I was subject to the AMT. Not knowing what it was at the time, I was expecting to hear that my return would have me paying less taxes, but I was suddenly suprised when I heard how much MORE I'd be paying.

 

[reefer]

Looks like they did it............................from thier website

 

[tcharron]

That's why I've always been for a flat tax..it just seems fair..on topic..even if the northeast winter is above normal temperature wise..there are tons of snowmaking oppertunities. Last season was so warm early on and Blue mountain only had to close for 5 days total and that's way down near 40 degrees latitude..closer to the equator than the North Pole. Alot of ski areas stop blowing snow in mid February due to budget reasons. Eastern ski areas that blow snow well into March deserve props..

It's only fair if you really want to see your tax rate increase dramatically.

But I digress. :-D

 

[Phildozer]

Looks like they did it............................from thier website

That looks like a really expensive lawn sprinkling, not snowmaking.

 

[Phildozer]

In my line of work we call that a "functional" test .. looks like it passed post maintenance testing.

In my line of work, we call that, "Honey, the lawn is brown. Turn on the sprinkler".

 

[tcharron]

In my line of work, we call that, "Honey, the lawn is brown. Turn on the sprinkler".

Perhaps if your lawn sprinkler was at hundreds of PSI and you'd never turned it on before you might think different. :-D