backcountry users beware!!

[VTpowder]

the meeting at jay peak this evening , imho, was a complete disaster. the state is taking action with no room for compromise. big jay access is closed until further notice. it was not a disscussion as to what to do about access, merely an "informational" meeting to let backcountry skiers know what was going on. the fences were up before the meeting took place and the gate was guarded today at jay by two gmc volunteers. stay away from that area, is the position from the powers that be, we are being asked to come together and form a formal club of sorts, to speak on our behalf, with the other clubs and organizations in the development of a management plan for big jay and all other backcoutry skiing destinations on state land. which is in the process of being written up now. did anyone get that memo?

watch out stowe and smuggs, you guys are next on their radar, and they what you shut down as well.

A QUOTE FROM THE COMMISH, " ALL CUTTING MOST STOP NOW. IT CAN NO LONGER GO ON."

Stay out of the woods with a saw or else, was the tone of the meeting. all and all, no questions were answered, but many good points were made by the bc community. basically though, we are shit out of luck

VTpowder

:evil:

 

[eatskisleep]

Wow that blows... thanks for filling us in.

 

[KingM]

Really sad that a couple of jerks brought down the hammer on everyone else. I hope the responsible bc skiers can find a way to get their access back at Big Jay.

 

[billski]

All it takes is two idiots with a chain saw and idle time to ruin it for many, many good, caring folks, for a long, long time. It's going to be a long healing process, not just for the forest, but for the various groups, who are now, unfortunately put into adversarial positions. Sad.
Damage done:

 

[thetrailboss]

Thanks for the report. Glad you went. No surprises...

 

[riverc0il]

I was there too. Kind of what I expected but there were surprises. The tone serious was a crack down across the state on cutting. And they were not just talking about swaths like the Big Jay cut, but pruning with loppers and hand saws for gladed terrain is out. The two guys that did the Big Jay cut are going to get the book thrown at them and made an example of (my interpretation). The state sounds like they are taking all cutting very seriously.

My unasked question was if snow mobilers and bikers can organize to make trails, can BC skiers? Didn't feel it was the forum to broaden the inquiry. Doubt it would work. These guys were talking partnership and cooperation and dialog but then they were not answering questions and taking suggestions. They were dictating the new rules. As the JPSP head said, they were treating the BC users like a bunch of babies.... chances are if you treat people like babies they will act in kind.

I have a lot of thoughts about this and will make a more detailed post later. I also have some action ideas. BC community is going to be forced to organize and rally behind this and other related issues. Some people at the meeting tonight were spewing forth some bile and disgust, but most had excellent thoughts and ideas and suggestions that generally were met with a "next question please."

 

[Mildcat]

It does suck that they have to punish all BC skiers for the actions of two numbnuts. They think that if they don't take action now every BC skier will be out there with tnt and bucket loaders creating their own ski resorts. Throw the book at the two dipshits and maybe the next drunkin idiots might think twice before doing something like that.

 

[JD]

Those guys should just move.

 

[wintersyndrome]

to iowa

 

[Johnskiismore]

Jeez, these guys really screwed it up.

But, I was wondering, what was this meeting? Was it just about BC use, and who/what organized it?

 

[billski]

Here is some background

this

and this

 

[Johnskiismore]

Thank you, that helped!

 

[bigbog]

....

Jeez, these guys really screwed it up.

But, I was wondering, what was this meeting? Was it just about BC use, and who/what organized it?

I sure would've loved to attend. These are get-togethers that I like attending. Usually a lot more interesting than our so-called Presidential debates.

 

[kingdom-tele]

I too attended

while i agree with alot of what local BC users said, I don't see how the state or GMC could really do anything else, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN SKIED, and is a damn beacon for anyone getting off the tram, while most who go out to the basin are respectful, there is even more who could give a rats ass, especially if they are told they shouldn't do it, you can still ski in from 242, you can still ski in the basin, you just can't access it from the ridge line, not that anyone will stop you.

I really hope the state/GMC makes the effort to get the scientific data on erosion and envoirmental impact, they need to do more than just put up a fence and say stay off the line, I hope it is a busy year for them

I also thought the picture comparison of big jay basin from the early 90's to today was quite revealing - put aside the chainsaw cut and the amount of snipping done for the past decade has really f'ed up the land

 

[mergs]

I was there too. Kind of what I expected but there were surprises. The tone serious was a crack down across the state on cutting. And they were not just talking about swaths like the Big Jay cut, but pruning with loppers and hand saws for gladed terrain is out. The two guys that did the Big Jay cut are going to get the book thrown at them and made an example of (my interpretation). The state sounds like they are taking all cutting very seriously.

My unasked question was if snow mobilers and bikers can organize to make trails, can BC skiers? Didn't feel it was the forum to broaden the inquiry. Doubt it would work. These guys were talking partnership and cooperation and dialog but then they were not answering questions and taking suggestions. They were dictating the new rules. As the JPSP head said, they were treating the BC users like a bunch of babies.... chances are if you treat people like babies they will act in kind.

I have a lot of thoughts about this and will make a more detailed post later. I also have some action ideas. BC community is going to be forced to organize and rally behind this and other related issues. Some people at the meeting tonight were spewing forth some bile and disgust, but most had excellent thoughts and ideas and suggestions that generally were met with a "next question please."

Absolutely they/you can! And they/you should. I would certainly be involved by now if I lived closer (I do mountain biking advocacy in NJ now). This, in fact, reminds me a lot of the illegal trail building situation in the mountain bike world.

First thing people need to do is understand the state's viewpoint: the people that run the state forests have allowed back country skiing for decades. Sure its public land but that does not mean we have free reign over its use. You might think we have the right, but that does not make it a fact, its still a privilege. They still get to dictate the appropriate use, and the GMC has put in decades of work that they get a huge say with the state. Its the same thing down here, you put in the time you get respect and say. GMC was probably appalled and when they complain, the state listens. When we go to a public meeting, we get next question please. Is it fair, prolly not, but understand that bc its power in ultimate end game.

So, even there has been pruning back there (and elsewhere), for decades I would bet money that the state knows it and because its been "hand pruning", thev're turned a blind eye to it.

Two guys with chainsaws changed that. Welcome to the backlash.

Sure the state could have been diplomatic and taken Q&A but I suspect that they wanted to inform the public of their decision and not have a debate about it. And why should they respect us? What exactly have we done for them? We've skiied the lines and some of us have cut down trees without permission.

Just because the state gave us no respect at the meeting does not give us permission to act like babies. You can surely do that and again I understand it and don't blame you. But to be constructive you need to think differently. The time is now to be constructive and to leave the "this sucks" attitude at the door. I hope some of you guys can approach the state and form a mountain bike style advocacy group for bc skiing. Talk to the Stowe Mountain Bike club for ideas for starters (or if there is a bike club near Jay, that too). Get a dialog going with the state, understand their viewpoint and find out how they would like you to help them do and then ask them for more access. If you give, you can take, and maybe the access preserved. They might want help patrolling, or planting trees, or who knows what. Find out what they need, and move forward.

Or we can complain about it, and poach and make access issues more contentious. After all they can't patrol big Jay can they? Of course not, but they can close the thing down and nail some of us for trespassing here and there as we exit onto 242. This would suck for a lot of us.

Just my 2c... wish I was not 7.5 hours away or I would be directly in this fight with some of you!

(p.s. Rivercoil, looking forward to your reply and proposed actions, you seem to have a good level head and would make a good advocate!)

 

[Shroud]

One has to wonder if this isn't a heavy-handed approach however. Just how much erosion and damage do they expect to occur during the winter season when snow and ice have frozen all the ground cover in place? I'm all for responsible use of natural resources but this really seems like a punitive punishment aimed at the community as a whole when they should be squarely focused on the two idiots that used the chainsaws in the first place.

 

[drjeff]

One has to wonder if this isn't a heavy-handed approach however. Just how much erosion and damage do they expect to occur during the winter season when snow and ice have frozen all the ground cover in place? I'm all for responsible use of natural resources but this really seems like a punitive punishment aimed at the community as a whole when they should be squarely focused on the two idiots that used the chainsaws in the first place.

Bottom line, even if there turns out to be not alot of erosion/damage, what the State really wants to prevent is more clear-cuts like this popping up all up and down the Green Mountain National Forest, and if they go hardline with this one, word will get out to the vast majority of the chainsaw happy crowd. My hunch is that 98% of the back country pruning that has gone on over the years will, off the record be okay, since it's essentially invisible unless you're in that glorius powder filled line. But if it looks like someone with gas powered, 4 wheel drive equipment did it, the book will be thrown at them

 

[thetrailboss]

Just how much erosion and damage do they expect to occur during the winter season when snow and ice have frozen all the ground cover in place?

Cutting down trees has a year-round impact. That snow and ice melts and will take the soil with it if trees are not holding it in place.

 

[kingdom-tele]

dr jeff,

the hand cutting that has gone on for years is very visible when you look at old photos

 

[AHM]

Policing the policy will be very very difficult

Trying to keep skiers from hand trimming at the various resorts will be next to impossible. The GMC simply does not have the financial resources and the volunteers will tire of the job. As many have said, the basic manual powered trimming that goes on has been going on for decades and will continue to. It goes on during all seasons. Right now Jay is the focus and the GMC/DEC/DNR will utilize Jay as an example to try and discourage trimming. Nonetheless, the covert act of "developing" tree lines will exist on the east coast until snow ceases to fall on the east coast.

Am I advocating trimming. Not at all, and it is something I never do and don't need to do. Do I ski some trimmed lines, sure. When we find them in the woods are skis go right at them.

Should backcountry skiers unite as Riv says. Absolutely, it's the only way to make their voice heard to state reps. When's the first meeting?