Belleayre and NYS Budget Cuts

[180]

As far as numbers, I know that Hunter's biggest year ever was 1987, 350k skier visits. Now they do roughly half of it. Anyone who says Hunter is crowded is nuts. You obviously don't remember waiting in 30-60 minute lift lines. This does not mean that it doesn't attract a certain clientel. Those with blue jeans and those that know it has the best skiing this side of Killington.

Windham has more visits now than Hunter with lift lines to boot. Both areas can accomidate more people.

I am very concerned about loosing Belleayre as a resource. I love it and my kids do. But the state should fund the Catskills equally. Belleayre has never semed to be outlandish with their spending, but making snow in April is crazy unless you want to make it to May.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

As far as numbers, I know that Hunter's biggest year ever was 1987, 350k skier visits. Now they do roughly half of it. Anyone who says Hunter is crowded is nuts. You obviously don't remember waiting in 30-60 minute lift lines. This does not mean that it doesn't attract a certain clientel. Those with blue jeans and those that know it has the best skiing this side of Killington.

Windham has more visits now than Hunter with lift lines to boot. Both areas can accomidate more people.

I am very concerned about loosing Belleayre as a resource. I love it and my kids do. But the state should fund the Catskills equally. Belleayre has never semed to be outlandish with their spending, but making snow in April is crazy unless you want to make it to May.

Wow Hunter only does 175k skier visits...what was the reason for Hunters decline??? The last time I was in the town of Hunter almost three years ago..so many businesses were shut down and the town could use some sprucing up. Blue mountain does about 300,000 skier visits a year but they have night skiing and tubing which brings in lots of additional people plus lots of school groups. I didn't realize Windham was more popular than Hunter. My Dad and I always used to visit Windham for short weekend trips to avoid the zoo at Hunter. I figure all the young skiers who from the city who used to come up to Hunter and party in the 80s and early 90s have settled down and had kids and now they go to Okemo or Windham..

When I first started skiing for real in middle school. The teacher who was head of the skiclub talked about Hunter and K27 like it was some sort of experts mecca and Hunter does have lots of nice terrain..it looks like Hunter is going to do alot better this season. If Belleayre is closed or only the Superchief is running..I'll definitely go there..

 

[WICKEDBUMPER]

But the state should fund the Catskills equally. Belleayre has never semed to be outlandish with their spending, but making snow in April is crazy unless you want to make it to May.

One thing about dealing with Gov. budgets is they are 'use it or loose it'. VERY overly simplified it goes like this...I know that if costs were $115,000 for a year and we were budgeted $100,000 for that year, we got $107,500 the next. In years like that, once that $100,000 was gone, we had to find it somewhere else in another program's budget. hopefully, someone else had a surplus. if we didnt find it, we bit the bullet and it came out of our pockets never to be seen again. In good years where we were given $100,000 but spent $80,000, we were given $85,000 for the next year. Surpluses are taken away, not to been seen for at least 2 fiscal years. if the next year is a bad year, FUBAR.
My GUESS is that 2006 season they blew $XXX,XXX worth of snow - they got a $XXX,XXX budget for 2007. BUT...2007 Actual by the end of March was less then $XXX,XXX so in order to ensure they get a $XXX,XXX budget for 2008, they blow snow like crazy in April to get them to exactly $XXX,XXX worth of snow in 2007.
Unlike Hunter or Wind, Bell is not looking to turn a profit, they are looking to stay on budget. its a different mentality where if you make money this year, you get punished next.
Thats why in good years not-for-profits hire extra people to work for just the last month of their fiscal year, every employee gets a new computer, lunch is on the house once or twice, or the christmas party you paid to go to last year is free this year.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I think the people who are making an issue about the wasteful spending and unfair playing field for Bell need to have a little dose of perspective. I am a NYS tax payer and generally a fiscal hawk, so I certainly don't want my tax dollars misspent. That being said, let's get our priorities straight here. The NYS budget for 2008-2009, including federal govt transfers, will exceed $120 BILLION dollars.

That's a lot of money. How large is the Belleayre operating budget in total? I can guarantee you it's significantly less than $10MM. Now how much of that is misspent? 10%? 20%? Just about any reasonable number you choose is no more than a rounding error compared to the fraud, waste and abuse existing in other parts of the budget. Don't take my word for it - here's an article from the NY Times (not exactly a right wing, fiscally conservative outlet) detailing alleged fraud just in the medicaid program running into the hundreds of millions of dollars each year:

NY Times Story

Do a quick Google search of NY State and budget fraud - you will quickly notice that this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you, as a citizen of NY State, are really up in arms about wasteful spending of your tax dollars, would it not make sense to speak out against the real sources of the problem?

Also, let's take a closer look at Belleayre's competitors who are allegedly being hurt by this wasteful government subsidy. Hunter Mountain recently built the luxury Kaatskill Mountain Club at a total cost of $26MM. To my knowledge, it is pretty much sold out, and given typical real estate margins, it likely generated in excess of $5MM of pure profit up front. That doesn't include the 45% of any rental income they will keep or the ongoing management fees. This year, they are pimping The Pinnacle - 7 luxury condos on top of the base lodge selling at a cool $500-700K each. Let's be clear here - the no one is going to need to hold a bake sale for the Slutskys anytime soon.

And how about those paupers over at Windham? They were sold to a group of investors in 2005. Must be some out-of-state rubes about to be taken to the cleaners due to the deck being stacked against them, right? Not exactly - the group was lead by longtime resort president Dan Frank and consisted mostly of local money. Presumably, there were aware of the severe disadvantage that Windham and Hunter were operating under. They were so fearful of this, not only did they plunk down an eight figure check to buy Windham, they then went and invested an additional $10MM over the next three years, including the largest single investment in Windham's history, on further capital improvements. Ladies and gentlemen, far from being at the mercy of unfair, state-subsidized competition, I would submit that Belleayre's primary competitors are in fact in rude health.

Let's be clear here - this is all about two things. First, it's about the fact that Hunter (and likely Windham) used to have a lot more skier visits in the mid-80s (along with EVERY OTHER major resort in the East during that time period, mind you) and they want to blame someone else for the decrease. After all, that's a lot of money they seem to be losing out on. Second, it's about the $180K they paid lobbyists to make this an issue in Albany. If they really gave a damn about taxpayer money, they would ask those lobbyists to agitate about the real sources of waste in the budget. But then tackling medicaid fraud wouldn't impact their bottom line then, would it? Hmmmm....

Face it - due to geography, hydrology and politics, the Catskill region is never going to be a hot bed of economic activity. Certainly, making snow in April is undefendable and stupid. I'm sure there are other examples where Belleayre could run a tighter ship. That said, to the extent that the state is spending an extra $1-2MM than it should in order to maintain the health of an entity that is arguably the largest economic driver of the Rt. 28 corridor, I can live with that. If the "wasted" money was going into the pockets of corrupt individuals, perhaps I'd be more upset. It is, however, clearly going into operating expenses for the mountain and generating a multiplier effect with respect to dollars spent in the Rt. 28 corridor. Ultimately, this money is supporting jobs and income in a region that is habitually short of same. The real outrage here is that self-interested parties, acting under the guise of fiscal responsibility, are (apparently successfully) influencing the powers that be in Albany so as to further line there already deep pockets. It boggles my mind that this issue could be obfuscated to the degree it has already.

Edit: Thanks GSS

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Dude learn to spell Belleayre..there is no U...lol

I hope the state sells Belleayre to a ski company like Peaks which owns Big Boulder and Mount Snow and spends some money on the place..

 

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

I think the people who are making an issue about the wasteful spending and unfair playing field for Bell need to have a little dose of perspective. I am a NYS tax payer and generally a fiscal hawk, so I certainly don't want my tax dollars misspent. That being said, let's get our priorities straight here. The NYS budget for 2008-2009, including federal govt transfers, will exceed $120 BILLION dollars.

That's a lot of money. How large is the Belleauyre operating budget in total? I can guarantee you it's significantly less than $10MM. Now how much of that is misspent? 10%? 20%? Just about any reasonable number you choose is no more than a rounding error compared to the fraud, waste and abuse existing in other parts of the budget. Don't take my word for it - here's an article from the NY Times (not exactly a right wing, fiscally conservative outlet) detailing alleged fraud just in the medicaid program running into the hundreds of millions of dollars each year:

NY Times Story

Do a quick Google search of NY State and budget fraud - you will quickly notice that this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you, as a citizen of NY State, are really up in arms about wasteful spending of your tax dollars, would it not make sense to speak out against the real sources of the problem?

Also, let's take a closer look at Belleauyre's competitors who are allegedly being hurt by this wasteful government subsidy. Hunter Mountain recently built the luxury Kaatskill Mountain Club at a total cost of $26MM. To my knowledge, it is pretty much sold out, and given typical real estate margins, it likely generated in excess of $5MM of pure profit up front. That doesn't include the 45% of any rental income they will keep or the ongoing management fees. This year, they are pimping The Pinnacle - 7 luxury condos on top of the base lodge selling at a cool $500-700K each. Let's be clear here - the no one is going to need to hold a bake sale for the Slutskys anytime soon.

And how about those paupers over at Windham? They were sold to a group of investors in 2005. Must be some out-of-state rubes about to be taken to the cleaners due to the deck being stacked against them, right? Not exactly - the group was lead by longtime resort president Dan Frank and consisted mostly of local money. Presumably, there were aware of the severe disadvantage that Windham and Hunter were operating under. They were so fearful of this, not only did they plunk down an eight figure check to buy Windham, they then went and invested an additional $10MM over the next three years, including the largest single investment in Windham's history, on further capital improvements. Ladies and gentlemen, far from being at the mercy of unfair, state-subsidized competition, I would submit that Belleauyre's primary competitors are in fact in rude health.

Let's be clear here - this is all about two things. First, it's about the fact that Hunter (and likely Windham) used to have a lot more skier visits in the mid-80s (along with EVERY OTHER major resort in the East during that time period, mind you) and they want to blame someone else for the decrease. After all, that's a lot of money they seem to be losing out on. Second, it's about the $180K they paid lobbyists to make this an issue in Albany. If they really gave a damn about taxpayer money, they would ask those lobbyists to agitate about the real sources of waste in the budget. But then tackling medicaid fraud wouldn't impact their bottom line then, would it? Hmmmm....

Face it - due to geography, hydrology and politics, the Catskill region is never going to be a hot bed of economic activity. Certainly, making snow in April is undefendable and stupid. I'm sure there are other examples where Belleauyre could run a tighter ship. That said, to the extent that the state is spending an extra $1-2MM than it should in order to maintain the health of an entity that is arguably the largest economic driver of the Rt. 28 corridor, I can live with that. If the "wasted" money was going into the pockets of corrupt individuals, perhaps I'd be more upset. It is, however, clearly going into operating expenses for the mountain and generating a multiplier effect with respect to dollars spent in the Rt. 28 corridor. Ultimately, this money is supporting jobs and income in a region that is habitually short of same. The real outrage here is that self-interested parties, acting under the guide of fiscal responsibility, are (apparently successfully) influencing the powers that be in Albany so as to further line there already deep pockets. It boggles my mind that this issue could be obfuscated to the degree it has already.

Nominated for smartest post of the board, ever?

(And I'm not just saying that 'cause I agree....There are a lot of SAT words in that post! And excellent sentence structure to boot. Thanks, Tin.)

 

[tjf67]

Nominated for smartest post of the board, ever?

(And I'm not just saying that 'cause I agree....There are a lot of SAT words in that post! And excellent sentence structure to boot. Thanks, Tin.)

x2 nice job.
Now get back to the books

 

[WICKEDBUMPER]

Certainly, making snow in April is undefendable and stupid.

Tin,
great post. except for the line I quoted.
From a purely NOT-FOR-PROFIT accounting point of view, making snow in April is the smart thing to do. IF and only if ... there was a surplus in the snowmaking budget. Might as well lay some snow down - it was paid for when the budget was set and it wont hurt next years numbers.
say they came up $100,000 under their snowmaking budget in FY 2007, FY 2008 snowmaking budget gets cut by probibly $50,000 - $75,000. What happens in FY 2008 when they need that extra $50,000 - $75,000 if its a bad snow year.
No Not-for-profit that is run well will ever show any kind of profit FROM OPERATIONS. They make profits elsewhere on the income statement.
Now, if they were on budget and they blew snow in April, they are just plain a-holes and have no excuse.

 

[thinnmann]

Nominated for smartest post of the board, ever?

(And I'm not just saying that 'cause I agree....There are a lot of SAT words in that post! And excellent sentence structure to boot. Thanks, Tin.)

I am quoting some of that in my letters!

and more email from Belleayre Mtn. Racing Association:
paste--->>>

The following web addresses for the contacts below make it easier for people to submit their letters. If you own a second home in the Belleayre region, use that as your address, otherwise they might not be able to respond and/or accept their emailed letter since it is out of their district.


Kirsten Gillibrand does not accept emails from outside her district: http://www.gillibrand.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=122&Itemid=29

Clifford Couch: http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=107

Maurice Hinchey: http://www.house.gov/hinchey/contact/

Kavin Cahill: http://assembly.state.ny.us/mem/?ad=101&sh=con​

 

[thinnmann]

Tin,
great post. except for the line I quoted.
From a purely NOT-FOR-PROFIT accounting point of view, making snow in April is the smart thing to do. IF and only if ... there was a surplus in the snowmaking budget.......

Now, if they were on budget and they blew snow in April, they are just plain a-holes and have no excuse.

I was not there in April - who was? please tell me - where were they blowing snow?
Were they blowing it in order to keep an open and safe run down to the base of Superchief? Were they blowing it to keep an open and safe run-out from the top of a lift? Or were they blowing it just to try and cover an entire run in order to open up?

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Tin,
great post. except for the line I quoted.
From a purely NOT-FOR-PROFIT accounting point of view, making snow in April is the smart thing to do. IF and only if ... there was a surplus in the snowmaking budget. Might as well lay some snow down - it was paid for when the budget was set and it wont hurt next years numbers.
say they came up $100,000 under their snowmaking budget in FY 2007, FY 2008 snowmaking budget gets cut by probibly $50,000 - $75,000. What happens in FY 2008 when they need that extra $50,000 - $75,000 if its a bad snow year.
No Not-for-profit that is run well will ever show any kind of profit FROM OPERATIONS. They make profits elsewhere on the income statement.
Now, if they were on budget and they blew snow in April, they are just plain a-holes and have no excuse.

Well, to be fair, if their goal was to ensure that they get a similar sized seat at the budget trough for the following year, then it's still indefensible. They should focus on running the ski area as best they can instead of playing stupid budget tricks. Quite frankly, in a year like 2007-2008 with all of the thaw/freeze events we had in the northeast, I'd be surprised if they were under-budget on snowmaking come April.

Again, my broader point here is that while Belleayre can and should be run more efficiently, it is among the worst targets you can pick if you are up in arms about NY State government profligacy.

 

[WICKEDBUMPER]

Again, my broader point here is that while Belleayre can and should be run more efficiently, it is among the worst targets you can pick if you are up in arms about NY State government profligacy.

I'm with you.

 

[Bandit2941]

So who's going to the meeting Saturday morning? skidbump and I are in.............

 

[skidbump]

wife also

 

[ed-drum]

Woodstock Times 9/11/08 (Belleayre's) "Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to 175,000 since then". An earlier article from the paper stated that Hunter's visits were (ca.) 175,000 and Beleayre's were (ca.) 70,000, so the attendance numbers are now reversed. My friends who work at Hunter have noticed the decline in the last 5 years.

 

[thinnmann]

Woodstock Times 9/11/08 (Belleayre's) "Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to 175,000 since then". An earlier article from the paper stated that Hunter's visits were (ca.) 175,000 and Beleayre's were (ca.) 70,000, so the attendance numbers are now reversed. My friends who work at Hunter have noticed the decline in the last 5 years.

Here is the full article.

snip---->>>>

And no Oktoberfest is just the tip of the iceberg says Joe Kelly, Chairman of the Coalition to Save Belleayre, who added that his sources "should know." Kelly said there are reports that if DEC does open the ski center, it will have only one chairlift running to the top of the mountain and only 13 or so open trails.

But Wren said that, like the Oktoberfest, none of these scenarios have been set in stone. "There haven't been any decisions made about Belleayre," she said.

Asked if there were plans to not open Belleayre this year she said "That's not the case at this time."

When operating fully, Belleayre boasts the Catskills' only Cat-access skiing and a widened and improved halfpipe and Area 51 Terrain Park. With 47 trails, parks and glades and 8 lifts, including a new High Speed Quad, Belleayre Mountain has evolved over the years, especially since the early 1980's when Kelly formed his coalition to keep the ski center from facing closure. Skier visits have grown from 70,000 in 1995 to more than 175,000 skiers since then.

"I've been hearing things from employees, who have been getting the information from meetings at work," Kelly said this week from his home in Long Island. "I don't want to get Tony in trouble...let's just say people are getting ready for a major cut back."

Kelly said that some people in his organization believe the budget cuts are related to the lobbying Greene County did to curtail Belleayre's operation, which also resulted in the now-vetoed Blue Ribbon Commission..

"We certainly hope that this is not the case. But it makes no sense to cancel the Oktoberfest, one of your biggest money-making events in a single year," said Kelly. "And once you are open and operating, it makes absolutely no sense to only operate part of your capital investment. I don't know if people in state government are caving to pressure from Greene County to hold Belleayre Mountain back, but we certainly intend to look at that possibility."

Kelly said he understands the governor's call for cuts and the fact that everyone in the state has to share in the pain of the current economy.

"But this is going to be way more than our fair share," he added. "We're facing a huge budget cut, the extent of which is only now becoming apparent."
​

 

[kingslug]

nobody I know has ever paid for a lift ticket at Belleayre...

Uh....I have. Our place is right up the road so we tend to spend some time there and can't always get free tix.

 

[Rambo]

Ski Belleayre Late Season

I live in Binghamton NY and have been skiing at Belleayre mid April for the last 4 years. Hunter Mountain and Windham now close early April. This is very sad. Belleayre is a quick 2 hour drive for me. With this economy I wonder how other North East Ski Resorts will fare?

 

[thinnmann]

news

Daily Star article:

snips---->>>

The state Department of Environmental Conservation announced Friday that the 29th annual Belleayre Fall Festival will be held at the Delaware and Ulster Railroad in Arkville on Columbus Day weekend.

The event is traditionally at the DEC's Belleayre Mountain ski area, but a DEC spokeswoman said the event, set for Oct. 11 and 12, was moved because of a partnership between DEC and the railroad.

Maureen Wren, DEC spokeswoman, said that Belleayre Mountain representatives will be at the festival to provide information about tickets for the upcoming ski season.

She said Belleayre will operate seven days a week this season, but the DEC will continue to evaluate the ski center's operation.​

also
http://www.catskillsnews.com/News/September08/13/Belleayre_budget-13Sep08.html

and
Belleayre backers rally against cuts

 

[dmc]

Uh....I have. Our place is right up the road so we tend to spend some time there and can't always get free tix.

But you can score a free ticket now and then... more then other resorts in the Catskills...