Belleayre closing due to layoffs

[HowieT2]

I've never been to belleayre so I can't comment on it's merits as a ski area. But as a ny state resident I do have some knowledge of the budget situation. Obviously the employees at the mtn are small potatoes relative to the size of the budget. But state employment overall is a big expense. Therefore, the state is cutting workers by having them take early retirement essentially shifting the cost from the budget to the pension system. Iirc, There is a projected deficit of 9 billion dollars. Of that, 5 billion is the result of the expiration of taxes on the wealthy. I would venture to say that not many of those benefitting from the aforementioned tax cut are residents of the catskills nor is it likely that a significant portion of that 5 billion will trickle down to the catskills. However, in the recent election upstate voters chose candidates supporting the priority of cutting taxes and spending, so this is what they want.
The big items in the state budget are education and medicaid. Medicare is a federal program.

 

[threecy]

I can't help but ask, but did Belleayre really need to purchase two brand new summit chairs in 7 years?

The Super Chief fixed grip quad was installed brand new in 1999. The main components of it were sold (to Catamount) and a new Super Chief high speed quad installed in its place in 2006. That can't look pretty on the books.

 

[deadheadskier]

not entirely unheard of

Okemo put their Summit Triple in in 1983, replaced in with a Detach in 1992. Put the Solitude Fixed Grip Quad in 1987, replaced with a Detach in 1994. The original Solitude Quad was moved to the Southface, only to be replaced with a HSQ three years later.

 

[Greg]

So in that regard, aside from you Joizey, New yawwwk, and mid-atlantic skiers, "who cares." :lol:

And regarding those 180 whatever-thousand skier visits. They won't make it up to where I ride, that's what VT and western MA are for. 8)

I live in CT and can easily go to all these epic resorts in SoVT and Western Mass you talk about. But one day last spring I opted for Belleayre with the boys cuz it was (1) still open and (2) had great bumps.



That was my first visit and was actually quite impressed with the place. Mount Snow was the next closest option that day and it was mowed flat as a pancake so Belleayre was the better choice. So interest in Belleayre goes beyond your stereotypes.

 

[drjeff]

I can't help but ask, but did Belleayre really need to purchase two brand new summit chairs in 7 years?

The Super Chief fixed grip quad was installed brand new in 1999. The main components of it were sold (to Catamount) and a new Super Chief high speed quad installed in its place in 2006. That can't look pretty on the books.

Who knows with it being a state run area and what the NYS budget allocation for Belleayre was in those years. They may have actually had the cash budgeted to do what for a privately run ski area (especially with relatively flat yearly visit numbers) would be a big event on the balance sheet. I'm sure that info is available someplace online, I just have no desire to spend a bunch of time google searching it

 

[Newpylong]

I would have to agree with you there. It's up there with the most boring places I've skied, and I like the cruisers as much as the next. Just my opinion of course.

55 full time employees seems to be way on the high side for a mountain of that size. Layoffs are unfortunate though..

Yup... And Bristol and Plattekill as well not just Hunter and Windham.




I gotta jump in on this Hunter sucking for beginners thing...
Hunter has a GREAT beginner area totally separate from the advanced area.. It has an award winning learning center built specifically to handle the beginner experience.. I've run my family through there before and it's great. It's not a fair thing to say that it sucks.

I've seen pictures and heard the complaints here of Belleayre just as crowded as Hunter.. I'm not going to get into the terrain and layout of Belleayre because many people like it - i do not..

 

[threecy]

not entirely unheard of

Okemo put their Summit Triple in in 1983, replaced in with a Detach in 1992. Put the Solitude Fixed Grip Quad in 1987, replaced with a Detach in 1994. The original Solitude Quad was moved to the Southface, only to be replaced with a HSQ three years later.

None of those lifts left the Mueller family of ski areas, though. Plus, those lifts were purchased with private dollars. Catamount certainly didn't pay the equivalent of a new lift when they bought the bulk of the Super Chief - the taxpayers paid the difference.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would have to agree with you there. It's up there with the most boring places I've skied, and I like the cruisers as much as the next. Just my opinion of course.

55 full time employees seems to be way on the high side for a mountain of that size. Layoffs are unfortunate though..

55 full time year round benefitted employees seems way high for pretty much any Eastern Ski Resort. I know we didn't have that many at Snowshoe when I worked there in 02. That despite doing 500K skier visits and having revenue north of 35mil.

 

[2knees]

those bastards at powdr corp must have had a part in this.

 

[zyk]

So has Belleayre been making or losing money in recent years? I don't rightly understand the funding structure with regard to the DEC and state.

 

[andrec10]

So has Belleayre been making or losing money in recent years? I don't rightly understand the funding structure with regard to the DEC and state.

The state does not understand the funding structure of the state, so why should we. There is no way Belleayre even breaks even they they are operated...

 

[ZYDECORICH]

This and the slew of other discounts and free tickets may be one of the reasons it struggles in the face of todays economy..

DMC happy winter!! thats ok . it can struggle.. breakeven.. lose a little... that may happen with publicly funded places. its for for public enjoyment.. hence your tax dollars. i just think it sucks because there aren't alot of them left for people on a budget. I understand the budget crisis in ny...hell nj isn't much better, but the Albany goons that got elected screwed this up. now the people who work and ski there may have to pay. just seems unfair. by the by i stay up at hunter every year on the midweek plan at one of the condos. lots of fun, but they never seem to open hunter one during the week. that sucks for the little one. also, they have to do something about that wait forever to get into mountain jam and then hike up the mountain with a wagon.. then go out to get more stuff and do it again. just nuts. hotel next time.

 

[threecy]

There is no way Belleayre even breaks even they they are operated...

It's hard to even compare a government owned/run ski area to a private ski area.

For instance, I doubt Belleayre pays any property taxes. Nor do I think Belleayre has to show the cost of any of their capital improvements on their balance sheet or income statement. Those things alone can eat up the bottom line of a privately owned ski area (take a look at the property tax issues and debt at Tenney and Ascutney, for instance).

 

[dmc]

DMC happy winter!! thats ok . it can struggle.. breakeven.. lose a little... that may happen with publicly funded places. its for for public enjoyment.. hence your tax dollars. i just think it sucks because there aren't alot of them left for people on a budget. I understand the budget crisis in ny...hell nj isn't much better, but the Albany goons that got elected screwed this up. now the people who work and ski there may have to pay. just seems unfair. by the by i stay up at hunter every year on the midweek plan at one of the condos. lots of fun, but they never seem to open hunter one during the week. that sucks for the little one. also, they have to do something about that wait forever to get into mountain jam and then hike up the mountain with a wagon.. then go out to get more stuff and do it again. just nuts. hotel next time.

How did Albany screw this up? Was Gov Patterson loading chairs and pouring beers incorrectly?

 

[dmc]

It's hard to even compare a government owned/run ski area to a private ski area.

For instance, I doubt Belleayre pays any property taxes. Nor do I think Belleayre has to show the cost of any of their capital improvements on their balance sheet or income statement. Those things alone can eat up the bottom line of a privately owned ski area (take a look at the property tax issues and debt at Tenney and Ascutney, for instance).

They don't have to pay sales tax, Property tax, Insurance, salaries - even the new chairs were paid for by the state...

 

[oakapple]

How did Albany screw this up? Was Gov Patterson loading chairs and pouring beers incorrectly?

To the extent Albany is screwed up, Paterson’s relatively brief tenure as as Governor is not the reason. New York has probably the most dysfunctional legislature in the country. The historically Democratic-controlled State Assembly and the historically Republican-controlled State Senate are chronically unable to work together.

Neither Paterson nor his predecessor, Eliot Spitzer, was very effective. But before them, there were 12 years of George Pataki, whose philosophy could be summarized as: “Never solve today what you can shunt off to the next governor.” The problems Spitzer and Paterson inherited were largely of Pataki’s making.

 

[dmc]

To the extent Albany is screwed up, Paterson’s relatively brief tenure as as Governor is not the reason. New York has probably the most dysfunctional legislature in the country. The historically Democratic-controlled State Assembly and the historically Republican-controlled State Senate are chronically unable to work together.

Neither Paterson nor his predecessor, Eliot Spitzer, was very effective. But before them, there were 12 years of George Pataki, whose philosophy could be summarized as: “Never solve today what you can shunt off to the next governor.” The problems Spitzer and Paterson inherited were largely of Pataki’s making.

Please tell me how this is the states fault?

I don't care about politics..

 

[oakapple]

It's hard to even compare a government owned/run ski area to a private ski area.

For instance, I doubt Belleayre pays any property taxes. Nor do I think Belleayre has to show the cost of any of their capital improvements on their balance sheet or income statement. Those things alone can eat up the bottom line of a privately owned ski area (take a look at the property tax issues and debt at Tenney and Ascutney, for instance).

Exactly. Government-run entities don’t keep the same kind of balance sheet as real businesses, and they don’t pay the rents or taxes that would be changed in a real arm’s-length relationship between the government and a private operator.

 

[drjeff]

Exactly. Government-run entities don’t keep the same kind of balance sheet as real businesses, and they don’t pay the rents or taxes that would be changed in a real arm’s-length relationship between the government and a private operator.

You forgot one key thing too. When a government run entity has a "problem" the answer usually isn't: step 1) figure out what the problem is step 2) figure out the options to fix the problem and the costs associated with each fix step 3) implement the best fix for the problem (the private sector way most times) The gov't run entity tends to be: step 1) be completely ambivoulous to the problem until its a REALLY big problem step 2) just blindly throw more $$ at the problem hoping that it will solve itself somehow and step 3) if step 2 doesn't work, form about 10 different task forces to study the problem over the course of about 5 years and a bunch more $$ while keep throwing more taxayer $$ blindly at the problem hoping it will fix itself :lol:

 

[zyk]

You forgot one key thing too. When a government run entity has a "problem" the answer usually isn't: step 1) figure out what the problem is step 2) figure out the options to fix the problem and the costs associated with each fix step 3) implement the best fix for the problem (the private sector way most times) The gov't run entity tends to be: step 1) be completely ambivoulous to the problem until its a REALLY big problem step 2) just blindly throw more $$ at the problem hoping that it will solve itself somehow and step 3) if step 2 doesn't work, form about 10 different task forces to study the problem over the course of about 5 years and a bunch more $$ while keep throwing more taxayer $$ blindly at the problem hoping it will fix itself :lol:

Isn't that just government doctrine? :-D

Hypothetically, could Belleayre survive and possibly thrive under private ownership? Sadly then they'd probably end the midweek discounts:sad:.