Belleayre to be part of ORDA?

[freeskier423]

good point. ORDA is good at running ski resorts. That is what they do. DEC is not set up to be flexible enough with purchasing to be efficient in that business. The manager of the ski resort should be able to oversee their own budget and determine what is necessary for their business to turn a profit. not someone that knows nothing of the ski industry,

 

[catskills]

http://www.watershedpost.com/2011/future-belleayre

The video calls out Hunter and Windham - but conveniently not Plattekill.
Probably easy to go after the big guys... But not 100% the truth as Platekill is JUST as vocal if not more then the others...

DMC you got to admit that a big difference here is Hunter and Windham make a lot of money selling real estate. For example, the wall street gang at Windham is selling or already has sold postage stamp size building lots between two trails high on the mountain for a few million just for one building lot. They got a tunnel under one of the trails to drive to those building lots. One building lot pays for all the 2011 Windham upgrades and they didn't even have to sell one lift ticket for those upgrades. :roll: Like the video said, Windham is very well connected in Albany. For example how did they get the environmental impact approved for those building lots high on the mountain. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes here that is hidden from all of us.

 

[mondeo]

I still can't find where in the NYS constitution it says it the operations can't be leased out to a private entity.

 

[dmc]

DMC you got to admit that a big difference here is Hunter and Windham make a lot of money selling real estate. For example, the wall street gang at Windham is selling or already has sold postage stamp size building lots between two trails high on the mountain for a few million just for one building lot. They got a tunnel under one of the trails to drive to those building lots. One building lot pays for all the 2011 Windham upgrades and they didn't even have to sell one lift ticket for those upgrades. :roll: Like the video said, Windham is very well connected in Albany. For example how did they get the environmental impact approved for those building lots high on the mountain. There is a lot more going on behind the scenes here that is hidden from all of us.

I hear ya...

I can't really speak for Windham...

I know Hunter sends people up to Albany to lobby for stuff... Why not?

But I'm sure Hunter makes a good coin on real estate - again - why not?

BUT - they didn't start that hotel until they actually had the money to do it effectively and burned the mortgage in like a year - I forget but it was paid off fast... And most of the units were sold. Incredible..

And thats a fiscally responsible business move.. After the hotel was paid they had enough for the 6pack.. The linear movement frustrates some but it makes sense for a family owned place.

But the point is - if your going to report... Report the whole story.. Plattekill has WAAAAAAY more to lose then Hunter or Windham. Laszlo has a lot to say...

 

[catskills]

I hear ya...
But the point is - if your going to report... Report the whole story.. Plattekill has WAAAAAAY more to lose then Hunter or Windham. Laszlo has a lot to say...

The whole truth is that the more business Belleayre does, the more Plattekill does. Plattekill gets a lot of spill over from Belleayre. People drive to Belleayre from Maryland, drive up RT28 multiple times to Belleayre and see the signs for Plattekill and say hey lets try Plattekill its only a few more minutes down the road. Once they ski Plattekill, they find out how amazing Plattekill is and they keep going to Plattekill.

Personally I think Plattekill's business would increase significantly if the Belleayre Resort thing was built.

To tell the whole story like you say I have to agree that Belleayre management has gotten a lot more aggressive on the lift ticket discounts, which has probably eaten into Plattekill's bottom line. The Belleayre Friday lift ticket discount is a good and bad thing. It may get people to try Belleayre that have never tried it while driving up to Vermont. This can eventually be a good thing for Plattekill and other Catskill resorts. On the other hand it may decrease lift ticket sales on the short term at Plattekill a bit.

Just to add. If customers are going to Gore, Whiteface, and Vermont rather than Belleayre, they are not going anywhere near Plattekill.

 

[dmc]

To tell the whole story like you say I have to agree that Belleayre management has gotten a lot more aggressive on the lift ticket discounts, which has probably eaten into Plattekill's bottom line. The Belleayre Friday lift ticket discount is a good and bad thing. It may get people to try Belleayre that have never tried it while driving up to Vermont. This can eventually be a good thing for Plattekill and other Catskill resorts. On the other hand it may decrease lift ticket sales on the short term at Plattekill a bit.

It just may be tough for a small "mom and pop" to deal with the short term decrease during this recession. It's bad timing... Could be what riled up Lazlo and friends.

But again - Platty is a vibrant part of this story and to not include it is disingenuous by making it appear that it only involves the "big guys" to gain sympathy for Belleayre; Thats what kinda makes me mad.

 

[oakapple]

I still can't find where in the NYS constitution it says it the operations can't be leased out to a private entity.

The link is here, and this is the money quote:

The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private, nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed. Nothing herein contained shall prevent the state from . . . constructing and maintaining not more than twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more than two miles of such trails shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the slopes of Belleayre Mountain in Ulster and Delaware counties. . . .

It seems pretty clear to me.

 

[mondeo]

The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired, constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private,

It seems pretty clear to me.

Yep, seems pretty clear to me. As long as NYS retains the land, they can lease the operating rights.

 

[threecy]

Yep, seems pretty clear to me. As long as NYS retains the land, they can lease the operating rights.

I bet they could word a lease carefully enough to possibly get it through the courts, as well.

 

[x10003q]

I bet they could word a lease carefully enough to possibly get it through the courts, as well.

Who is the "they" to do this in the courts?

 

[threecy]

Who is the "they" to do this in the courts?

They, as in whomever in the New York state government would be making a lease happen.

 

[catskills]

It just may be tough for a small "mom and pop" to deal with the short term decrease during this recession. It's bad timing... Could be what riled up Lazlo and friends.

But again - Platty is a vibrant part of this story and to not include it is disingenuous by making it appear that it only involves the "big guys" to gain sympathy for Belleayre; Thats what kinda makes me mad.

The real story is the big money real estate deals and lobbyists in Albany. The Plattekill story is just a diversion.

I love skiing Plattkeill and I definitely want to see Plattekill keep running. There are some good people over at Plattekill. I give credit for the owner Lazlo in keeping this place running. He and his wife do not have an easy job. Truth is when I read your statement, "Lazlo and friends" I was ROFLMAO. Anyone who knows Lazlo knows why I was laughing.

 

[Harvey]

To tell the whole story like you say I have to agree that Belleayre management has gotten a lot more aggressive on the lift ticket discounts, which has probably eaten into Plattekill's bottom line.

I agree with this 99% - remove the word probably and it's spot on. If a competitor — and let's face it Bell is Platts closest competitor in the Cats — cuts it prices in half (2-for-1) it's going to hurt your business. There's no scenario that I can imagine where Bells discounts are helping Plattekill.

What's got Laszlo and Danielle riled is the fact that the business undercutting him runs at a loss, and that loss is covered by taxpayers, including him.

On the other side, under the DEC Bell's had little capital improvement which has to make it harder to sell tickets.

Just to add. If customers are going to Gore, Whiteface, and Vermont rather than Belleayre, they are not going anywhere near Plattekill.

I must be the exception to the rule. I ski at Gore, Whiteface and Vermont. Gore primarily, Whiteface when I can, and Vermont once a year. This year I made three trips to the Catskills, 2 Plattekill and 1 Hunter.

 

[dmc]

The real story is the big money real estate deals and lobbyists in Albany. The Plattekill story is just a diversion.

I love skiing Plattkeill and I definitely want to see Plattekill keep running. There are some good people over at Plattekill. I give credit for the owner Lazlo in keeping this place running. He and his wife do not have an easy job. Truth is when I read your statement, "Lazlo and friends" I was ROFLMAO. Anyone who knows Lazlo knows why I was laughing.

whatever... You know what I meant...
Would Laszlo and company be better?

Plattekill is not a diversion - it's a ski area... But you knew that... Their opinion on this is just as valid as the big guys..

 

[dmc]

What's got Laszlo and Danielle riled is the fact that the business undercutting him runs at a loss, and that loss is covered by taxpayers, including him.

shhhhh.. It's just a diversion... :roll:

Doesn't count...

 

[catskills]

shhhhh.. It's just a diversion... :roll:

Doesn't count...

Is it a real issue for Plattekill's bottom line? YES. I already stated that. Is it a diversion from the million dollar building lots sold by Windham and lobbying done at Albany. You betcha. shhhhh nobody is suppose to know about the building lots at Windham.

 

[dmc]

Is it a real issue for Plattekill's bottom line? YES. I already stated that. Is it a diversion from the million dollar building lots sold by Windham and lobbying done at Albany. You betcha.

How do they relate? What does Plats beef with Belleayre have to do with Windham?!?!?
To me it seems the diversion is you bringing up Windham...

There are three distinct ski areas upset with Belleayres ticket dumping paid for by the taxpayer...

Hunter, Windham AND Plattekill...

 

[catskills]

How do they relate? What does Plats beef with Belleayre have to do with Windham?!?!?
To me it seems the diversion is you bringing up Windham...

There are three distinct ski areas upset with Belleayres ticket dumping paid for by the taxpayer...

Hunter, Windham AND Plattekill...

I think we are in agreement . Hunter/Windham beef with Belleayre is for very different reasons then the beef Plattekill has with Belleayre. Plattekill is truly all about lift ticket sales. Hunter and Windham have Real Estate deals on the line.

 

[dmc]

I think we are in agreement . Hunter/Windham beef with Belleayre is for very different reasons then the beef Plattekill has with Belleayre. Plattekill is truly all about lift ticket sales. Hunter and Windham have Real Estate deals on the line.

I don't agree with that...

A beef is a beef...

 

[oakapple]

I bet they could word a lease carefully enough to possibly get it through the courts, as well.

Oh yeah? The dictionary definition of "lease" is: "a contract renting land, buildings, etc., to another."

What property would be conveyed in the lease you're imagining, without violating the state Constitution? What would they be getting for their money? Who can you imagine that would want it? What's in it for them?

And who would sign up for that deal, given the practical certainty that this "lease" could be tied up in litigation for years?