Big Burke announcement

[fbrissette]

Not so sure about diving but I think a 50 m pool fits well into the development. The development at Jay Peak was done with trying to get people to come year round. And that means giving a little bit of everything to the family. The pool is a nice complement to the mountain biking facility. They could attract teams for swim training camp. I could easily see tons of triathlon training camp setting up at Burke. These guys ain't stupid.

I too was skeptical of the ice arena at Jay, but they get a helluva a lot of hockey tournaments year round. Instead of hitting the road with one parent driving with 3-4 teammates, all of the families come cause there is a lot of stuff to do, unlike the typical tournament in a boring suburb. Families used to come to Jay in limited number to ski. Now they come in large numbers because they can ski, waterpark, skate, arcade etc... They even come when there is no snow because the place is fun.

 

[from_the_NEK]

A good pool for swimming laps would also likely benefit BMA to help add a new element to their training regimen. However, the diving part still has me scratching my head.

 

[AdironRider]

Considering they already have an 8 lane 25 yard pool, which barely anyone uses for laps to begin with, I seriously doubt upping the ante to a 50m pool is going to attract anyone.

50m is a big pool. I seriously doubt 50% of the overall population could barely swim one length, let alone a full lap.

Most triathalons are open water swims anyways, training is different and so is stroke technique. While maybe good for base training, noone is going to travel to train in a pool that is nothing like the competition they would be taking part in.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Diving, seriously?

I thought they had lost it with 4 hotels with sub 100k skier visits, now its just confirmed theyve jumped the shark and all the "found money" they have in EB-5 and jading their business sense. Diving, sweet jesus.

I noted Looooooooong ago that the articial manipulation of an economy is a dangerous thing, almost always fraught with unforeseen negative consequences. Most people take an extremely facile view on matters like this and think, "oh, all that money in an undeveloped area, and since it's all foreign money with not much taxpayer expense, how could that not be a good thing?" Well; stick around.

Who would have thunk an Ice Rink in the middle of no where in the NEK would have been so successful?

Is it "so successful" though? Maybe it is, I dont know. I go to Jay several times a winter and get up there in the summer occasionally, and it doesnt seem that busy to me. The reason they built that wasnt for the NEK market, it was because they're going after the Montreal market, which is Canadian. From that standpoint, it makes perfect sense. But take a look at the schedule, there are big blocks of 3 hour chunks that say "stick and puck" and "public skate", which are the times of day an ice rink can usually replace those terms with "we're not making money". Admittedly, this may be slightly different at Jay and public skate might actually bring in a lot of folks since they're a captive audience, but that thing certainly isnt getting the use in the spring, summer, and fall as it does in the winter. Bottom line, even ice rinks in fairly developed markets have a tough go of things, so I'm unconvinced the Ice Haus is a cash cow, and my guess is Jay doesnt care. I see it more as an ancillary draw, so they're probably happy if if breaks even or turns a small profit.

So long Burke, it was nice knowing you while you were an old school classic ski area. Unlike Jay, which was already a resort

To me, before this expansion, Jay Peak wasn't a "resort" at all. I think the character is completely altered.

You used to walk up to this little wooden hut and buy lift tickets, and the hotel was classic New England. I dont begrudge or blame Jay even one bit for taking the "free money" (who wouldnt), but I do think something very valuable was forever lost with all their "progress".

 

[thetrailboss]

And just to muddy the water some more on the aquatics facility, LSC already has a 25 yard 8 lane pool that I believe is rather under utilized.

http://www.northernarchitects.com/Images & Graphics/ShapePool.jpg

It is a beautiful, underused pool.

 

[thetrailboss]

I noted Looooooooong ago that the articial manipulation of an economy is a dangerous thing, almost always fraught with unforeseen negative consequences. Most people take an extremely facile view on matters like this and think, "oh, all that money in an undeveloped area, and since it's all foreign money with not much taxpayer expense, how could that not be a good thing?" Well; stick around.

You used to walk up to this little wooden hut and buy lift tickets, and the hotel was classic New England. I dont begrudge or blame Jay even one bit for taking the "free money" (who wouldnt), but I do think something very valuable was forever lost with all their "progress".

I think that it needs to be clear that, again, EB-5 money is not government funding, except for the small amount of government expense in processing the Visas/green cards and reviewing the project, and EB-5 money is by no means "free." It is foreign investment capital made by folks who expect, and are promised, a return on their money.

It is no different than any other capital or private investment, other than the fact that it has been targeted to a specific locale based on demographics (poor areas) and is pitched to a specific group of investors (foreign nationals who desire to have US Citizenship).

You're right though in that having large pools of capital at ones disposal might cause one to lose perspective. But saying it is "free money" is not accurate.

 

[AdironRider]

I think we all realize that.

But its also not just a straight investment in the normal sense either. While Im sure the investors would love to see a decent return, and I surmise that up to this point they have, I dont think that is the ultimate motivation towards "investing" through the EB-5 program. Most likely, thats money they would be willing to spend anyway to get to the front of the visa line anyways.

Having easy money lined up with less risk can most certainly jade business decisions, especially if you've been on a roll for the past couple years and your selling a guaranteed win with a visa. I think thats Benedicts and my point, that while they certainly have been sucessful to date, I think they are getting somewhat cocky in the "build it and they will come" premise.

 

[fbrissette]

Considering they already have an 8 lane 25 yard pool, which barely anyone uses for laps to begin with, I seriously doubt upping the ante to a 50m pool is going to attract anyone.

Most triathalons are open water swims anyways, training is different and so is stroke technique. While maybe good for base training, noone is going to travel to train in a pool that is nothing like the competition they would be taking part in.

Did not even know they already had a pool.

Most triathlon camps focus on cycling and running especially in the north-east. A typical week long triathlon camp will feature something like 18 hours of cycling, 6 hours of running and a couple of hours of swimming. So Burke would be a great place. But then, so is Lake Placid and it has a lot more to offer.

 

[fbrissette]

Is it "so successful" though? Maybe it is, I dont know. I go to Jay several times a winter and get up there in the summer occasionally, and it doesnt seem that busy to me. The reason they built that wasnt for the NEK market, it was because they're going after the Montreal market, which is Canadian. From that standpoint, it makes perfect sense. But take a look at the schedule, there are big blocks of 3 hour chunks that say "stick and puck" and "public skate", which are the times of day an ice rink can usually replace those terms with "we're not making money".

I beg to differ. I hear a lot of complaints from homeowners that there is little 'stick and puck' available time. They get 30+ hockey tournaments this year, plus some figure skating camps. A typical tournament will easily bring 300 persons to the hill, most of which will stay and eat the resort.

 

[AdironRider]

To be fair as well, those stick and puck times are pretty awesome for locals.

Depending on the setup, it might be contracted with the town or a local organization to have those. I know the local rink here in Jackson does that, as well as the outdoor rink beside my house in Wilson.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Did not even know they already had a pool.

Most triathlon camps focus on cycling and running especially in the north-east. A typical week long triathlon camp will feature something like 18 hours of cycling, 6 hours of running and a couple of hours of swimming. So Burke would be a great place. But then, so is Lake Placid and it has a lot more to offer.

Burke does not have a pool. Lyndon State College does but it is 10 minutes away. Burke would be a great place for Triathalon camps, The rural roads lend nicely to road biking (as long as the pavement is in decent shape). I've heard triatheletes admit that the swimming portion is their weakest leg due to lack of coaching and a decent place to train.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I think we all realize that.

Correct

But its also not just a straight investment in the normal sense either. While Im sure the investors would love to see a decent return, and I surmise that up to this point they have, I dont think that is the ultimate motivation towards "investing" through the EB-5 program. Most likely, thats money they would be willing to spend anyway to get to the front of the visa line anyways.

Also correct. Many make no bones about the fact that they may NEVER see a return on their money. They are paying for access. EB-5 is by no means a safe investment, and the incoming party is generally well aware of the risks (or at least one would hope). This is part of the shady underbelly of the deal. Sure, people want to see an ROI, and maybe they in fact will.......... or maybe they wont. Point is, this is not a liquid investment by any means or stretch of the imagination.

I beg to differ. I hear a lot of complaints from homeowners that there is little 'stick and puck' available time. They get 30+ hockey tournaments this year, plus some figure skating camps. A typical tournament will easily bring 300 persons to the hill, most of which will stay and eat the resort.

If you look at the daily schedule, there are usually 3 hours blocks of both "stick and puck" as well Public Skating. As a former hockey player that had to kick and claw to find ice time, even going as far as to rent out rinks for one hour with friends from 2am to 3am due to the highly competitive and always booked nature of rinks, that stuck out to me.

Maybe we just have different views of what success is for a rink, I'm not saying they're not doing okay, maybe they're in fact doing very well financially, but I'm used to ice being pretty difficult to get, or at least not seeing 7 hours per day being S+P and Public Skate. Maybe they do this on purpose for non-skiers?

EDIT: BTW, $180/hour to rent out an entire ice rink is pretty cheap. I've paid more than that 20 years ago!

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/ice-arena/ice-haus-arena-schedule

 

[from_the_NEK]

Maybe they do this on purpose for non-skiers?

EDIT: BTW, $180/hour to rent out an entire ice rink is pretty cheap. I've paid more than that 20 years ago!

I think that is the idea. They wouldn't be able to promote the arena as a alternative to skiing if it was constantly booked up with skating clubs and hockey teams. The mid-day/mid-week stick-n-puck/public skating makes great blocks of time for someone just to pop over from the hotel to skate.

 

[fbrissette]

Correct


If you look at the daily schedule, there are usually 3 hours blocks of both "stick and puck" as well Public Skating. As a former hockey player that had to kick and claw to find ice time, even going as far as to rent out rinks for one hour with friends from 2am to 3am due to the highly competitive and always booked nature of rinks, that stuck out to me.


EDIT: BTW, $180/hour to rent out an entire ice rink is pretty cheap. I've paid more than that 20 years ago!

http://www.jaypeakresort.com/ice-arena/ice-haus-arena-schedule

If you look at week-ends, there is no free skating or stick and puck time available 4 out of 5 week-ends. Mid-week is different I'll grant you that.

 

[riverc0il]

Is it "so successful" though?

Absolutely. They are killing it with that ice rink. One of the hotels on 242 was converted from a skier hotel into lodging for hockey players. It isn't just about the public skate and stick and puck. They are pulling in tournaments and teams from all over the place and it is only going to go further for them once they get that new athletics facility built Stateside. I've heard enough from the inside that I'm convinced that rink is making Jay big money.

To me, before this expansion, Jay Peak wasn't a "resort" at all. I think the character is completely altered.

You used to walk up to this little wooden hut and buy lift tickets, and the hotel was classic New England. I dont begrudge or blame Jay even one bit for taking the "free money" (who wouldnt), but I do think something very valuable was forever lost with all their "progress".

How many ski areas that are not resorts have their own inn, hundreds of condos, and a full championship golf course? The visual face is certainly different, the base area no longer has "classic" looks and vibe (and the last vestige of classic, the Stateside Lodge, is going to be next on the hit list). But it was a resort long before Tram Lodge or the Waterpark or the Hockey Rink or the new Inn or the new learning center or the spa... well, it certainly is much more of a resort now than it was before....

...but by your estimation, Smuggs is not a resort either. Smuggs Madonna lodge is about as classic as it gets but that place is a resort.

 

[BeefyBoy50]

Diving, seriously?

As a competitive swimmer and coach for over two decades, anyone whos anyone knows divers are flakes and primarily consist of the weird kids who need to fulfill an athletic credit or something. There are very few competitive, SERIOUS, divers out there. Not to knock those that are, its a very intricate sport, but the overall majority just dont give a rip.

Furthermore, why would any diver actually worth his salt go to Burke when if they really are that serious, they're in Cali, Texas, or AZ training with the best coaches in the world.

I thought they had lost it with 4 hotels with sub 100k skier visits, now its just confirmed theyve jumped the shark and all the "found money" they have in EB-5 and jading their business sense. Diving, sweet jesus.

Yes divers are weird but don't just make fun of them. I'm sure as a coach you've seen your fair share of weird divers and there are a lot of them out there but some of them are really good and most divers are nice kids. Further, a lot of divers are really devoted to the sport- it's just as difficult a sport as any other. As a diver myself I don't think I fit this mold of just doing the sport to get a credit- I already do track and xc and I just do diving for fun and because maybe eventually some day I'll translate the skills to skiing... everybody can dream haha.
Anyway this seems like a good idea to me. As a resident of the greater philadelphia area I really wish there was a 10 meter platform nearby- they are so fun to jump off. The nearest one to me is Princeton (not open to the public) or Penn State (3 hrs). I bet the concentration of actual diving centers is even more rare in upstate VT- and I mean real boards not your cheesy backyard plank. I predict this center might actually bring more people than you might expect, maybe people who want to train but more likely those who want to walk to the end of the 10m and then walk back down the steps with their tails between their legs

 

[AdironRider]

Yes divers are weird but don't just make fun of them. I'm sure as a coach you've seen your fair share of weird divers and there are a lot of them out there but some of them are really good and most divers are nice kids. Further, a lot of divers are really devoted to the sport- it's just as difficult a sport as any other. As a diver myself I don't think I fit this mold of just doing the sport to get a credit- I already do track and xc and I just do diving for fun and because maybe eventually some day I'll translate the skills to skiing... everybody can dream haha.
Anyway this seems like a good idea to me. As a resident of the greater philadelphia area I really wish there was a 10 meter platform nearby- they are so fun to jump off. The nearest one to me is Princeton (not open to the public) or Penn State (3 hrs). I bet the concentration of actual diving centers is even more rare in upstate VT- and I mean real boards not your cheesy backyard plank. I predict this center might actually bring more people than you might expect, maybe people who want to train but more likely those who want to walk to the end of the 10m and then walk back down the steps with their tails between their legs

So you are telling me you are going to travel from Philly, to use a ten meter board near the Canadian border?

Nevermind that diving (at least in the Northeast) is primarily a winter sport due to the way high school and college schedule them. There is not a ton of overlap between divers and skiers. Same for swimmers, I didnt really take up snowboarding to the extent that I do now until I stopped training and started coaching.

Doesnt LaSalle have a diving facility? Im thinking back to my high school days on that one though when I was traveling round the country for meets.

Do you know what it costs to build a facility like this? Its in the millions for a decent setup. Do you know what a swim meet pulls in in revenue? Do you know the labor and liability insurance costs associated with a pool like this? How much would you pay for the priviledge of using their setup? Not many people are going to choose to pay to jump off a ten meter, when they can do it for free at any of the million cliff jumping spots in VT. Its like mecca for that. Red Rocks at tiered levels up to 76 feet is free, closer to civilization so to speak, and yeah free. Same with Buckets down near Bolton/Richmond, etc. Plus they have a water park with all sorts of fun things for the non-divers. Your telling me a non-diver is going to get his thrills on a ten meter and not a water slide? Highly doubt it.

 

[Steve@jpr]

As usual, you guys have these topics pretty well wrestled. I'll just add that, and Steve is right, we don't look to the ice sheet to be successful in and of itself. I set the pricing as a lost leader (and thus the tournaments are a hell of a lot more affordable than many places) to help fill rooms. Rink's been open 3 full years and, this coming year, we'll have 40 weekends of 12-16 teams booking a total of between 250-300 total rooms--much of this during shoulder seasons. The per-caps on these folks, alone, tell a good story. Add in two weeks worth of Planet Hockey camps, Pro Ambitions Camps and figure skating marginalia and while possibly not a home run, a stand-up triple certainly can be argued. Certainly more successful than even the most optimistic among us forecasted. And Francois is right (and I have the hatemail that bears it out)--weekends we have no avail stick and puck/free skate times--it was he main reason ice-access is no longer included in packages; weekends have no space. I'll give you a shout when I get my head around diving. Still waiting for the divine on that front.

Forecast is improving too.

So you are telling me you are going to travel from Philly, to use a ten meter board near the Canadian border?

Nevermind that diving (at least in the Northeast) is primarily a winter sport due to the way high school and college schedule them. There is not a ton of overlap between divers and skiers. Same for swimmers, I didnt really take up snowboarding to the extent that I do now until I stopped training and started coaching.

Doesnt LaSalle have a diving facility? Im thinking back to my high school days on that one though when I was traveling round the country for meets.

Do you know what it costs to build a facility like this? Its in the millions for a decent setup. Do you know what a swim meet pulls in in revenue? Do you know the labor and liability insurance costs associated with a pool like this? How much would you pay for the priviledge of using their setup? Not many people are going to choose to pay to jump off a ten meter, when they can do it for free at any of the million cliff jumping spots in VT. Its like mecca for that. Red Rocks at tiered levels up to 76 feet is free, closer to civilization so to speak, and yeah free. Same with Buckets down near Bolton/Richmond, etc. Plus they have a water park with all sorts of fun things for the non-divers. Your telling me a non-diver is going to get his thrills on a ten meter and not a water slide? Highly doubt it.

 

[thetrailboss]

Thanks Steve. Are you folks doing the marketing work for Burke? Collaboratively? Or just letting them do their own thing? I'm seeing some cross-marketing, but still not a lot.

 

[Steve@jpr]

They're pretty much running things on their own TB--I try to help where I can but not as much as even I might have expected.

Thanks Steve. Are you folks doing the marketing work for Burke? Collaboratively? Or just letting them do their own thing? I'm seeing some cross-marketing, but still not a lot.