Big Burke announcement

[BenedictGomez]

tennis is pretty much a non-draw......maybe something nice to do when you run out of everything else to do, but who travels to play tennis?

Actually, lots of kids do. Tennis was my #1 sport as a kid and I traveled for tournaments quite a bit. Problem is, I only traveled in my district. The USTA carves America up into 17 districts, and Vermont is D1 with NH, ME, CT, RI, and MA, so I imagine that would be the likely target market if Burke tries to get into lots of camps and tennis tournaments. But to your point, I think the question should be, "who travels to ne.VT to play tennis?" That would be a pretty tough sell were I a tennis parent from CT or MA I think.

VTKilarney summarized the meeting quite well.
The physicain lady rambled a lot and kept coming back to the same topic as though she forgot the answer they had just given her. And she seemed willing to put wind turbines all over the mountain to generate electricity even though the CFO said the one that is there is barely worth it (estimated 50 years before it breaks even).

An honest financial assessment of wind power? How heart-warmingly refreshing. And I'll bet that analysis doesn't even include the lost opportunity cost either, but still, I'm impressed.

Actually they know exactly who their customers are, their customers are the EB-5 investors, the Chinese. There was just a great story on 60 minutes over the past few weeks about how tennis is exploding in China because of a recent Chinese womans pro that recently retired, I wouldn't know her name, because I do not follow tennis like the rest of the people in this country. But in any event it's exploding over there, the Chinese investors are going to see a tennis center as a perfectly legitimate investment. Who cares about the reality of its viability here in Vermont. The whole EB-5 program is a scam and there are some people at the top getting very rich off it.

Interesting take. Don't know if you're right, but if it turns out that "diving" is a focus of the aquatic center I'd be willing to bet you're onto something, as that's one of the most popular sports in China.

 

[River19]

Actually, lots of kids do. Tennis was my #1 sport as a kid and I traveled for tournaments quite a bit. Problem is, I only traveled in my district. The USTA carves America up into 17 districts, and Vermont is D1 with NH, ME, CT, RI, and MA, so I imagine that would be the likely target market if Burke tries to get into lots of camps and tennis tournaments. But to your point, I think the question should be, "who travels to ne.VT to play tennis?" That would be a pretty tough sell were I a tennis parent from CT or MA I think.

Fair point, I played tennis as a kid and for a bit after college for fun here and there, problem was, no one else played......and I stopped looking for playing partners. My point, as you correctly interpreted was out of all the things you could build to draw people to you quiet little mountain......they went with friggin' tennis? What lost out to tennis as the idea they dropped? Indoor Bocci? A massive indoor horseshoe facility?

Hey I hope it works out, heck maybe I'll play a little, but I'm sure glad it isn't my coin funding that thing.

I'll tell you what......there better not be good tennis facilities and shit snow making otherwise something went horribly wrong, again. Just get the hotel built and get the snowmaking sorted out to be at least league average with the rest of New England.

 

[from_the_NEK]

The woman that died apparently fell, slid off of Carriage Road, and hit a tree. She was by herself at the time and wasn't reported missing until the end of the day by the person she was at the mountain with. It's a scary thought that she was lying there for some undetermined/reported amount of time with no help or even anyone looking for her. :sad:

 

[River19]

The woman that died apparently fell, slid off of Carriage Road, and hit a tree. She was by herself at the time and wasn't reported missing until the end of the day by the person she was at the mountain with. It's a scary thought that she was lying there for some undetermined/reported amount of time with no help or even anyone looking for her. :sad:

Is it normal for someone whom you are skiing with to not make any kind of contact for a few hours? Seems odd to me.

Tragic.

 

[ironhippy]

Is it normal for someone whom you are skiing with to not make any kind of contact for a few hours? Seems odd to me.

Tragic.

depends, but not normally.

If I am skiing "with" people we would normally wait up at the bottom for the rest of the group to catch up.

It could be that they were skiing together, but someone decided to go to the lodge and the other wanted to keep skiing. In those situations, if you aren't actively trying to find the other people (by waiting at the top or the bottom), you can miss them even if you're skiing the same trails.

 

[deadheadskier]

Is it normal for someone whom you are skiing with to not make any kind of contact for a few hours? Seems odd to me.

Tragic.

Only time this happens with me is if I'm skiing with someone of a different ability and they want to ski different terrain than I do. In that situation, there's no intention of meeting at the lift in between runs, so you can go a couple of hours between meeting up again.

If I'm skiing the same trail as someone though, I have full intention of meeting them back at the lift, if not sooner if we are skiing in the trees. Lately, I've actually thought about carrying a whistle with me when I ski the trees and a having a spare for a skiing partner. In dense trees, it's pretty easy to get separated and voices really don't carry very far in a thick forest.

 

[mbedle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the BMA during their brief ownership change the name to Burke 2000.

They've been in business for 59 years. That's as long as most major ski resorts in the State. It's a couple of years longer than Killington and Sugarbush. Combine that and the history of Olympic skiers who trained there and I say yes, it's a historic ski area.

If the Quiros started their own ski resort from scratch, I wouldn't have much of an issue with calling it "Q" Mountain Resort. The fact that it's been Burke Mountain for 59 years is a little different though. When Les Otten bought Sunday River, he didn't change the name to "O" Sunday River Resort.

 

[deadheadskier]

Not sure. I certainly don't recall ever seeing a Trail Map saying Burke 2000 or hearing a radio advertisement for Burke 2000

 

[thetrailboss]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the BMA during their brief ownership change the name to Burke 2000.

Sort of.

The major benefactor for BMA provided money to a specially created entity related to BMA to buy and run the mountain for a number of years. To the Average Joe it was BMA I guess you can say.

That major benefactor looked for a buyer to take it over. In 2005 he convinced these folks to buy the area as a REIT and this guy and his company to develop and operate it. (Hence the corporate name GinnLaBurski).

Things crashed of course. In 2011 the same angel worked to get the new HSQ installed and helped finance it. Q's came into the picture in early 2012 when they bought Burke. As a last gift, to BMA and the mountain, the angel financed some snowmaking work.

 

[from_the_NEK]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the BMA during their brief ownership change the name to Burke 2000.

That was the operating/business/name they register with the IRS.

They didn't change the brand/public facing name.

 

[thetrailboss]

FWIW there were two other name/brand changes that were short-lived.

First, from 1991-1995 or so it was "Burke Mountain" but was a part of "Bear Kingdom, Ltd." Some of the signs and ads did have both names.

More recently, there was a short-lived name change from 1995-1996 when the resort was named "Northern Star/Burke Mountain." They dropped "Northern Star" after the first year or so.

And while the entities from 2000-2012 had names other than Burke Mountain, it was always "Burke Mountain".

 

[River19]

And yet we are still stuck with the dumbest one of all.......the Q....

 

[mbedle]

According to the Tennis Industry Association, it appears that there is financial growth in the industry. As far as making money, wouldn't the majority of income from a tennis and aquatic facility would come from coaching, lessons, tournament fees, hotel reservations and food?

Here is what matters to me: Ary guaranteed the audience that multiple top to bottom routes would be open by Christmas. Stenger and Ary guaranteed the audience that they will be told exactly what improvements will be made to snowmaking by the time that the early bird season pass rate closes. If Ary doesn't follow through with these two things he's past the point of no return. Nobody really cares whether or not a tennis center happens. But they do care about whether or not there is snow on the hill.

On a more generic level, the second major outcome of the meeting for me was the confirmation that Ary is no Bill Stenger. Whatever you may think of the whole EB-5 issue, it is clear that Stenger has a PhD in ski area management and public relations whereas Ary just completed the moving up ceremony from kindergarten to first grade.

This is not to say that the discussion of the EB-5 buildout was irrelevant. But I am focused now on next year, not the next few years. Had the next few years been my primary concern, the meeting would not have given me much confidence. They definitely didn't convince anyone that aquatics and tennis will make Burke a viable operation. I'm still cringing at Ary's insistence that tennis is a growth industry in the USA.

 

[mbedle]

I read it on another site, and it made it sound like they changed the name. I must have read it wrong and it makes sense it was just and operational name for the company and not the resort name.

 

[deadheadskier]

According to the Tennis Industry Association, it appears that there is financial growth in the industry.

Regionally maybe. New England? I highly doubt it. All Industry Associations will massage the numbers to show growth. The fact is that more indoor tennis facilities in New England are closing than are being built. And trust me, I look for new ones all the time in hopes of finding lesser expensive places to play indoors than what exists in reasonable commute from me currently. I just think they are way too expensive to heat in today's energy price climate to offer much if any of an ROI.

 

[mbedle]

You are right that industry association always try to paint the best picture. Do we have any idea how much this facility is going to costs to build?

Regionally maybe. New England? I highly doubt it. All Industry Associations will massage the numbers to show growth. The fact is that more indoor tennis facilities in New England are closing than are being built. And trust me, I look for new ones all the time in hopes of finding lesser expensive places to play indoors than what exists in reasonable commute from me currently. I just think they are way too expensive to heat in today's energy price climate to offer much if any of an ROI.

 

[VTKilarney]

According to the Tennis Industry Association, it appears that there is financial growth in the industry. As far as making money, wouldn't the majority of income from a tennis and aquatic facility would come from coaching, lessons, tournament fees, hotel reservations and food?

Actually, the TIA report that is most often cited says that there is a growth in participation - in shockingly large numbers. This is likely a result of their aggressive outreach program to children, which really took off as the Williams sisters entered the scene. But participation isn't the end of the story.

If you look at the statistics involving actual money spent on tennis, it paints a very different picture. The statistics show that the amount spent on tennis is not keeping pace with population growth and inflation. That's a fancy way of saying that it's in a decline.

 

[thetrailboss]

Using tennis as a means to pitch the project to Chinese investors makes complete sense.

 

[burski]

You are right that industry association always try to paint the best picture. Do we have any idea how much this facility is going to costs to build?

I believe the budget for both the tennis and pool was between $15-$20 million - it seems like a no brainer, who wouldn't want to invest in this. I am sure Q will be able to pay off investors immediately with this cash cow... These structures, if built, will become nothing more than homes for small mammals in the future!

 

[River19]

Well the good news is, the owners that take over after Q can re-purpose the tennis facility pretty easily.......

All joking aside, It isn't my money thankfully. I believe, and someone can correct me, that the EB5 projects sit in a silo as they have so many specific provisions attached to them as far as job creation etc. and the funding of course is separate from the operational budgets. And this is where I get concerned, where is the large amount of capital for the snow-making overhaul coming from?