Big Burke announcement

[Big Wave Dave]

would be willing to bet skier days are lower due to the ridiculous cold and the a crappy snowless winter. what are other mountains reporting? jay has seemed busy as usual to me this year who knows.

and how are they behind on terrain? they had similar percentages open as most areas and would say that is currently accurate.burke isnt a groomers paradise, it takes snow to open alot of those trails, it aint okemo where it can be manicured real easy.

agree wholeheart with lbrissette for what its worth. but still dont get the snarky negativity from you guys.

 

[VTKilarney]

have you guys, like, been to burke this year? [T]he grooming is some of the best I have seen.

burke isnt a groomers paradise, it takes snow to open alot of those trails, it aint okemo where it can be manicured real easy.

I think people get snarky when you can't even keep the same train of thought.

 

[thetrailboss]

would be willing to bet skier days are lower due to the ridiculous cold and the a crappy snowless winter. what are other mountains reporting? jay has seemed busy as usual to me this year who knows.

and how are they behind on terrain? they had similar percentages open as most areas and would say that is currently accurate.burke isnt a groomers paradise, it takes snow to open alot of those trails, it aint okemo where it can be manicured real easy.

They did not have a lot of terrain open for TWO out of three crucial holiday periods. That is huge. Sure, weather was an issue, but they admitted that they had problems with snowmaking.

agree wholeheart with lbrissette for what its worth. but still dont get the snarky negativity from you guys.

Again, you need to go back in this thread and read what folks have discussed and read the media reports themselves.

 

[Big Wave Dave]

VTKillarney, what I said is it is not at all weird to only have one trail from the summit at burke at christmas. I have no idea what else you are talking about. Kind of disengenous also since the entire base area was open, and thats the focus for families during a holiday week.
i also recall skiing boot deep pow one week before christmas all over the mountain with no snowmaking in site. maybe they f'd up- but you and I both know if it hadnt thawed big time then no one would have noticed snowmaking issues. Just seemed like burke to me, never been a place that threw alot of dollars into the wind and I have never expected that when i go there. it skied better than jay did after the big thaw IMHO.

 

[VTKilarney]

You are correct. If it did not thaw they would have had more snow.

But it did thaw. And guess what. They gambled and they lost big time. Other resorts were MUCH better prepared for the thaw. Burke was not even close to being prepared. They lost pretty much everything they had, and it was almost as if they had to start the season over from scratch.

Just look at trail reports from after the thaw, and you will see exactly what I mean.

And keep in mind, Ary dumped a lot of money into snowmaking this past summer and claimed that it would be much better. Even if it was just the same as usual that's a negative.

My intel states that they had issues with snowmaking because they got rid of the person who knew how to run the system the best. I'm not sure if this is true, but it fits with what has been happening up there.

 

[Big Wave Dave]

Trailboss, I wont fight ya, I skied burke before x-mas and once on NY weekend (dont ski during holiday weeks, no explanation necessary right?) and it seemed like normal burke to me. I think you guys need to cut some slack IF the owners clean up their PR routine and especially if they bring KT back into good graces. Expect speedbumps any time new management takes something over (as in people get fired and sh*t breaks), whether burke or elsewhere. Burke is still burke and a dumb name and foot in mouth owner aint gonna change that.

peace people, see ya in the TRAM line this weekend.

 

[thetrailboss]

trailboss your comments are just silly. the enemy? like when I ski by Ary in the liftline he tries to trip me and then beat me with my own ski pole? c'mon dude.

:roll: Um, OK. Read this post from Ary (yes, it was really from him) and tell me I am wrong:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/uvmba/jM5cnYOfTh0

This all started when Ary had an interview with VTDigger andbasically threw KT under the bus claiming that they were taking advantage of Burke.

And his Daddy said some really vicious and libelous things about the previous (quiet) partner at the mountain who has donated hundreds ofthousands of dollars to BMA and Burke to keep it going. That was on VTDigger last month. Really below the belt there and the (lack of an) apology was really pathetic.

Both KT and BMA are HUGE reasons why Burke even still operates. Hell, they ARE the reason why Burke still exists. And both father and son really went on the attack for whatever reason. Don’t believe me? Spend the weekend going through this thread and read the VTDigger articles. Watch the WCAX interview and listen to what Ary says. Then tell us that we’re wrong. So far you are the ONLY person who has tried to play Devil’s Advocate.

 

[thetrailboss]

Trailboss, I wont fight ya, I skied burke before x-mas and once on NY weekend (dont ski during holiday weeks, no explanation necessary right?) and it seemed like normal burke to me. I think you guys need to cut some slack IF the owners clean up their PR routine and especially if they bring KT back into good graces. Expect speedbumps any time new management takes something over (as in people get fired and sh*t breaks), whether burke or elsewhere. Burke is still burke and a dumb name and foot in mouth owner aint gonna change that.

peace people, see ya in the TRAM line this weekend.

Again, the NE ski industry lives or dies by revenue that comes from Saturdays and the three big holiday periods (Xmas, MLK,Presidents). As Win Smith told us Sugarbush passholders in October 2010, it literally boils down to like 42 DAYS that make or break a resort and determine if the season is in the black or red(and how red). So far Burke has BLOWN two out of those three periods and admitted that they did not do so well in anEmail (that I received from a Burke passholder).

Sure in the days of Burke 2000, before Ginn, and even during one of Ginn’s season, the Christmas Skiing sucked. But they pretty much almost ALWAYS got their act together by MLK because they had to. Not this year. They opened later and had problems with snowmaking. They admitted that they did a different snowmaking plan this year by not opening a lot of terrain at once. Folks go to places that have the most trails open as listed on SnoCountry.com. Sorry, it’s the truth.

And the PR stupidity did not help them either.

 

[VTKilarney]

I think it's as simple as this. For the first half of the season Burke has had a fraction of the terrain to offer compared to other mountains (percentage wise). This was due to a lack of snowmaking.

If you want people to come to your mountain, you can't lure them if other mountains have a much higher percentage of terrain open.

It comes back to what I said at the very beginning. I don't need to like Ary. I just need him to make sure snow is made and the trails are groomed. That didn't happen this year.

A friend of mine rents a condo on the mountain. All of his tenants so far have wound up skiing at other areas in the region and have stated that they will rent at those other areas in future years. That does not bode well for Burke.

 

[thetrailboss]

A friend of mine rents a condo on the mountain. All of his tenants so far have wound up skiing at other areas in the region and have stated that they will rent at those other areas in future years. That does not bode well for Burke.

Wow. That sucks.

 

[VTKilarney]

Wow. That sucks.

Yeah, he's really bummed about it. He has never had a year like this. The renters haven't been upset at the lack of snow. They've been upset at the lack of snowmaking.

Truthfully, his best season is in the summer. That's why he is so bummed at losing these people who were willing to rent in the winter.

 

[billski]

have you guys, like, been to burke this year?

Yep. About a month ago. Caught some snow which increased the trail count about four. It was a good but frustrating day. Then it rained again. Do you have skin in the game?

 

[thetrailboss]

Looks like QBurke is not partaking in the annual Lyndon/Burke Snowflake Festival. And the Burke Chamber of Commerce moved their recent winter social to another venue.

Q might as well secede from the town and form the Town of Quiros: population 1

 

[VTKilarney]

I chuckled when I noticed that their printed trail map lists Kingdom Trails as a "partner."

Skiing was the best it has been this year thanks to the recent natural snow. They need one more dump, however, to completely cover the trails without snowmaking.

 

[thetrailboss]

I chuckled when I noticed that their printed trail map lists Kingdom Trails as a "partner."

Skiing was the best it has been this year thanks to the recent natural snow. They need one more dump, however, to completely cover the trails without snowmaking.

Q will charge them next year for the advertising. It's called maximizing revenue.

 

[Big Wave Dave]

hey guys me again. This is fun!

how odd the world is, I know multiple families who are planning on renting condo's next year at burke or are in the market to buy. I also know a few people who have season rentals this year who were surprised by the cost but did it anyway. So I guess the trepidation is not uniform, because rates are the greatest indication of owner perception of the market. And the rates are HIGH for winter rentals in my opinion.TBD I guess for next year but I am not hearing this at all, and the market does not reflect this- home/condo prices are not budging either and when properties have been trading they have been trading on the ask.The sentiment you refer to is not being seen in real time practice.

Traiboss, BTW, I came to this forum because of the VTDigger articles so if your wondering what rabbit hole I popped out of.... (gotta love the Digger...). This was clearly the website that was mentioned as having lots of negative comments, I was very surprised at how negative (yours especially for a moderator) and I just didnt see the need after all the times I have been in the Q era, so here I am. I get that they are PR idiots and the KT crowd is passionate to the point of insanity (they should be, they built the damn thing and it rocks), but the Q's also have alot more to lose than you or anyone else on this thread. Your comment that they are charging for advertisment, tongue in cheek I get it, but hell, how many times has burke gone out of business. What do you propose they do? Clearly they need to revisit revenue streams as well as many other structural issues. Thus, eggs broken and people miffed and here we are.
I spent many years in the world of corporate finance and m&a before moving up here full time and I can tell you, what the Q's have done is not much different than what happens in corporate reorgs across the world, new owners think eveyone else did it wrong and think they can do it better, and express that. You can say what you want about Don Graham (who I know) or the Doug Kitchels of the world but a fact is a fact- burke has been a disater financially and someone with deep pockets is willing to take a risk to end that, and they are high on themselves for doing it.Let them puff their chests a bit if thats what they think they need, people down in Boston and Hartford who ski weekends have no idea about the pissing matches that you and I do, and the perception of burke from the folks I meet on the chair hasnt changed a bit, except their is real excitement now about what *could be*. People look at Jay and they say "why not here". and its really the same team, so why not? keep In mind, Jay has had its issues too but its going gangbusters, maybe a little too much....

I also saw some print media/mtn bike rag that said KT talks with the Q's are back on... would love to get your and the others thoughts on this.Was a bike mag and not from the mouth of Q Jr so hoping its not spin.

and Bill T, yeah I have skin in the game. I live in Glover, spent my youth and my kids youth at Burke and Jay, and if Burke dies the burke/lyndon area dies with it, from the condo's to the Colonnade, with everything in between (Wildflower, Village Inn, EB Sports) dying. So maybe I am a "shill" as prior stated

 

[thetrailboss]

hey guys me again. This is fun!

how odd the world is, I know multiple families who are planning on renting condo's next year at burke or are in the market to buy. I also know a few people who have season rentals this year who were surprised by the cost but did it anyway. So I guess the trepidation is not uniform, because rates are the greatest indication of owner perception of the market. And the rates are HIGH for winter rentals in my opinion.TBD I guess for next year but I am not hearing this at all, and the market does not reflect this- home/condo prices are not budging either and when properties have been trading they have been trading on the ask.The sentiment you refer to is not being seen in real time practice.

Traiboss, BTW, I came to this forum because of the VTDigger articles so if your wondering what rabbit hole I popped out of.... (gotta love the Digger...). This was clearly the website that was mentioned as having lots of negative comments, I was very surprised at how negative (yours especially for a moderator) and I just didnt see the need after all the times I have been in the Q era, so here I am. I get that they are PR idiots and the KT crowd is passionate to the point of insanity (they should be, they built the damn thing and it rocks), but the Q's also have alot more to lose than you or anyone else on this thread. Your comment that they are charging for advertisment, tongue in cheek I get it, but hell, how many times has burke gone out of business. What do you propose they do? Clearly they need to revisit revenue streams as well as many other structural issues. Thus, eggs broken and people miffed and here we are.
I spent many years in the world of corporate finance and m&a before moving up here full time and I can tell you, what the Q's have done is not much different than what happens in corporate reorgs across the world, new owners think eveyone else did it wrong and think they can do it better, and express that. You can say what you want about Don Graham (who I know) or the Doug Kitchels of the world but a fact is a fact- burke has been a disater financially and someone with deep pockets is willing to take a risk to end that, and they are high on themselves for doing it.Let them puff their chests a bit if thats what they think they need, people down in Boston and Hartford who ski weekends have no idea about the pissing matches that you and I do, and the perception of burke from the folks I meet on the chair hasnt changed a bit, except their is real excitement now about what *could be*. People look at Jay and they say "why not here". and its really the same team, so why not? keep In mind, Jay has had its issues too but its going gangbusters, maybe a little too much....

I also saw some print media/mtn bike rag that said KT talks with the Q's are back on... would love to get your and the others thoughts on this.Was a bike mag and not from the mouth of Q Jr so hoping its not spin.

and Bill T, yeah I have skin in the game. I live in Glover, spent my youth and my kids youth at Burke and Jay, and if Burke dies the burke/lyndon area dies with it, from the condo's to the Colonnade, with everything in between (Wildflower, Village Inn, EB Sports) dying. So maybe I am a "shill" as prior stated

It seems to me that you are because if you read the VTDigger comments and those here you will see that you're in the minority...perhaps playing Devil's Advocate?

And yes, moderators have opinions. The tag does not mean anything regarding that opinion.

If you see Ary’s comments back in December as not being inciteful (accusing KT of taking advantage of the mountain), nor his father’s comments slander (accusing Don Graham as using the mountain to cater to his friends and not giving a rats a$$ about the community), then you must know something that the majority does not know or have an inside line that we don’t. The view, both here and in downtown Burke, is that these folks are burning bridges left and right and really pissing people off. Hence, why you had no lines at “Q” and had such an awesome ski experience because nobody is there! Just because others may do this elsewhere does not make it right.

 

[thetrailboss]

And as to what to do: here are two case studies you shouldlook at. The first being Ascutney in which the last owners were from the “NYC Business” crowd and came up, plasteredtheir faces all over everything, made the mountain about “them” and pissed offthe locals so much that they could not get employees and struggled for yearsbefore going down in flames in 2010. I’msure that they did some things right by the book, but they still failed.

The other case study would be Sugarbush. Deep pocketed Win Smith comes in and understands the community, embraces it (with its quirks), and emphasizes the importance of service and guest relations. I’d call that a success story. Isit perfect? No, but he is smart enoughto know that when the winter sucks the folks in NYC will fly to Colorado toski, while the local family in Waitsfield/Warren are committed to Sugarbush and will be there if you treat them right.

You argue that they need to worry about folks in Hartford and NYC. Hate to say that, but they’ve been doing that for now 30 years or so. It is a tough market. The last few years they were trying to cater to both and trying to use the local community to their advantage because when the snow sucks they still come. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

You also say that it’s OK, for the vitality of the business,to burn some bridges and make some changes that may anger some customers. I don’t think anyone disputes that to a certain extent and the counterpoint is NOT that change is bad. But you don’t get into a heated public fight with a very visible non-profit group that is giving you pretty much your entire summer business over a few bucks and then smile for the camera as you call them mooches. You also don’t call the savior of the mountain, who still is in town, a selfish a$$hole and not expect some blowback. And you also don’t take a community institution that has been around longer than you or me and slap your name on it as they’ve done.

So what do you do now? Surely if you read and gave us locals some credit (yes, I am a local because I grew up in Lyndon and have followed the ski area for years), you will see that the solution is to hit the “reset” button, send Ary to another business, and get in a seasoned ski resort manager to run things. Ownership takes a step back—no more interviews with anyone, no more off-the-cuff stupid remarks, let the manager run things. Get a PR campaign back up…Burke:nothing’s changed. Focus on the beds for the out-of-towners. Make amends with KT—agreeto give them a few bucks, but charge a bit more on the lift tickets orfood. Welcome all guests and stop withthe “we’re smarter than you all” crap. As you surely know the whole “I’m smarter than you” thing does not work well in the NEK.

 

[thetrailboss]

One only needs to see that the Quiros don't say anything regarding Jay Peak, that they also own, Bill does the talking. Now we know why. The same should go with Burke.

 

[Big Wave Dave]

Trailboss, OF COURSE I am stirring the pot

We are on the same page my friend and you nail it with the difference between Ascutney and Mascara Mtn (old name for the 'Bush)- but again as a former corporate dingbat, don’t you and the others mistake errors of execution with errors of strategy- the prior can be corrected and with tenure I believe will-your synopsis is SPOT ON, and really, the first constructive criticsm I have seen on this thread.
Up to this point I have seen page after page of criticsm of execution.

regarding strategy, lets change the talk.

What are your thoughts and the other members on the viability of the hotel, training faciliites, etc.

because at the end of the day, these are the elements that truly define the sustainability of Burke. Not if Q Sr. badmouthed an NEK hero, or that Q jr. thinks lift serviced mtn biking is viable without a KT nexus. Location and circumstance are far harder to change than rhetoric. This is all a tempest in a teapot compared to what happens if they don’t build what they say and change that fundamental dynamic.