Big Burke announcement

[Masskier]

It's really hard to have a discussion with someone who keeps moving the goal posts. Your original "insider information" was that construction would begin just as soon as the ground was solid. You now concede that this is not at all a certainty. And by the way, it's not gambling if you know you are going to win.

I didn't say that I believe the hotel will be built. Here is what I currently believe: (a) They do not have sufficient funds in place to begin construction of the hotel; (b) It remains to be seen whether they will ever have sufficient funds in place. That is all I believe - and nothing more.

One again, I will let time determine which of us is more honest and/or more intelligent regarding Burke. We'll chat on June 22nd.

You really don't have to make it this complicated. Why don't you pick up the phone and call them yourself? That is what I did. They will be happy to talk to you, it's not like they are keeping this a secret. That way you don't have to spread false rumors and you will be able to talk intelligently about Burke. And the people who read this forum will have more reliable information.

 

[VTKilarney]

You really don't have to make it this complicated. Why don't you pick up the phone and call them yourself? That is what I did. They will be happy to talk to you, it's not like they are keeping this a secret. That way you don't have to spread false rumors and you will be able to talk intelligently about Burke. And the people who read this forum will have more reliable information.

I think the fact that you believe that this is a reliable and unbiased source of information is all we needed to know to assess the credibility of this information. I can assure you that my source is more accurate than whomever picked up the phone at guest services. Nothing can happen without my source knowing about it, let's just say that.

Again, let's revisit this on June 22nd. No point in beating a dead horse prior to then.

I was able to get out this morning. Conditions were unbelievable for this time of year. Sad to see the season winding down. Sadly, Little League tryouts got in the way of a longer day on the hill.

 

[VTKilarney]

I guess Masskier has been banging this drum for a long time:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=785936&highlight=#post785936

And this gem from January, 2013:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=753981&highlight=#post753981

And even older:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...uad-to-the-top?p=568567&highlight=#post568567

 

[xlr8r]

This season might have really hurt the Q BurQe project in the end. All the mess during the first half of the season with the stupid name change, breaQing up with Qingdom Trails, and having low trail counts open until Februrary I think kept a lot of people away from Q BurQe. While all other mountains had very good seasons, I would expect that Q BuQe (just a guess at this point) had only an average or below average season based on reports from others. Who would want to invest in the project after the mess this season was for them at the start, especially now that there are plenty of other EB5 projects around to invest in. The fact that only 25% of the project is currently funded is very telling, and not good news for the resort. But they kind of have brought it upon themselves with all the outrageous claims they made when they bought the place. Now reality has set in.

 

[VTKilarney]

This season might have really hurt the Q BurQe project in the end. All the mess during the first half of the season with the stupid name change, breaQing up with Qingdom Trails, and having low trail counts open until Februrary I think kept a lot of people away from Q BurQe.

If that's the case it's really unfortunate that management allowed that to happen. For as much frustration as I had earlier in the year, I have no complaints at all with management for the second half of the year. They have made a lot of great decisions that have not been only about their bottom line. For example:
1) Keeping the lifts open until 5:00 PM on weekends;
2) Making snow late into the season;
3) Staying open until April 13th.

Having said that, Burke is still Burke. It's always hard to get people up to the mountain. I am concerned that there seemed to be some fairly aggressive ticket discounting as the season rolled along. At the end of the day, if they can't make money and they are losing their own money, they aren't going to stick around. No matter how much infrastructure has been put into place over the past few years, the ski area is in serious danger of closing for good if nobody can figure out a way to prevent losing money even if that infrastructure has been put in place. It's as simple as that. That's one reason why I have been rooting for the hotel to be built - and why I have been upset that it has not yet been built and may not be in the near future.

IMHO, the real test will be next season. We will find out if they get the kinks worked out and we'll find out if the hotel is about to open. Based on how things turned around this year, I am upbeat in regard to the former, but not holding my breath on the latter.

The most pressing concern for me right now is that we are on the eve of biking season and there has been no announcement of improved relations with Kingdom Trails. Hopefully something will happen soon.

It's sad to see this ski season end. We were skiing on natural-snow trails today - April 6th! While those trails probably won't make it to next weekend, there is still SO much snow up there. The snowmaking trails have LOTS of life left in them.

 

[Masskier]

I think the fact that you believe that this is a reliable and unbiased source of information is all we needed to know to assess the credibility of this information. I can assure you that my source is more accurate than whomever picked up the phone at guest services. Nothing can happen without my source knowing about it, let's just say that.

Again, let's revisit this on June 22nd. No point in beating a dead horse prior to then.

I was able to get out this morning. Conditions were unbelievable for this time of year. Sad to see the season winding down. Sadly, Little League tryouts got in the way of a longer day on the hill.

Guest services??? Come on... your kidding right. Look, its really quite simple. You have made some serious allegations about Burke in a public forum. Allegations that can impact people livelihoods both directly and indirectly in the form of future jobs.. I called and spoke to one of the owners. I responded to your direct questions with this information. You questioned my statements and called me out on it, Even wanted to make a bet with me... You talk about being honest and providing credible information in this forum. Well, when you make statements like you have, then you have the responsibility to substantiate what you are saying. If not then you are just spreading worthless rumors. So take a couple of minutes tomorrow and make the call. You have nothing ton loose except to gain the truth. If you need a name or number let me know. In fact if you want I will even set up a conference call for you.

 

[Masskier]

I guess Masskier has been banging this drum for a long time:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=785936&highlight=#post785936

And this gem from January, 2013:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...e-announcement?p=753981&highlight=#post753981

And even older:
http://forums.alpinezone.com/showth...uad-to-the-top?p=568567&highlight=#post568567

Thanks for the recap. You have way to much time on your hands. Everything I have said was the best information that was available at the time. Its taken many years to get Burke where it is today and will take many more for its complete build out.

 

[Masskier]

You hit the nail right on the head. Masskier, you need to understand that people in the Northeast Kingdom appreciate honesty. You seem to mistake our well-founded concerns as an indication that we do not wish for Burke to succeed. What you don't understand, is that we've been through five owners in about 25 years - four of whom have gone bankrupt. The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy.

I remember when Magic Mountain closed and a friend's condo had its value reduced by half literally overnight. Nobody wants that to happen to Burke. But right now that is a distinct possibility. Burke needs to be smart, not just big. I don't know the answers, but I do know that bullshitting the people that care about the mountain isn't an answer.

Burke could wind up like Ascutney. It could also wind up like Mad River Glen - a ski area that was on the verge of being lost forever that is now healthy thanks to creative solutions to a problem. Just because we don't think along the lines of development at all costs, don't assume that we don't love that mountain.

" The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy. "

Who was This??

 

[VTKilarney]

" The other sold the resort as their other assets were being placed into bankruptcy. "

Who was This??

Ginn. Other Ginn resorts were going bankrupt beginning in 2008. Had it not been sold, Ginn's Burke holding was headed down the same path as those other resorts. This is why Don Graham personally provided half of the financing for the Mid-Burke Express. He knew that Ginn was looking for a way out even at that time, but believed that a HSQ was essential to facilitating a sale.

 

[VTKilarney]

Allegations that can impact people livelihoods both directly and indirectly in the form of future jobs.. I called and spoke to one of the owners.

If, as you insist, construction is going to begin forthwith, some idiot voicing concerns on the Internet isn't going to make one bit of difference. I should hope that Burke's operation is not nearly as fragile as you are suggesting. I suggest that more damage is done by repeatedly assuring something that is never delivered. But who cares as long as it helps to sell condos. Shattered expectations are a lot less important once that check clears.

Don't you think that Stenger saying that it's only 25% funded, and making no reference to a start date, may carry a little more weight? Have you taken him to task? I bet not.

I have no reason to doubt that Ary told you that construction will commence forthwith. The fact that Ary said this does not, in and of itself, make it true.

Here are the facts that we know:
1) The hotel project has been delayed from its original start date.
2) Stenger has stated that Burke is only 25% funded.
3) Stenger made not mention of a start date for construction.
4) Stenger stated this during an interview wherein he was providing reassurance after an announced delay in another EB-5 project, and was trying to suggest that things in EB-5 land were still very much on track.
5) Ground was broken on the Stateside Hotel project at Jay Peak on April 29, 2013.
5) As of April 6th, there is no trailer or other tangible sign of pending activity at the Burke construction site.

These facts make me skeptical that construction will begin this spring. I may be wrong. I HOPE that I am wrong. But given the fact that Stenger and Ary apparently seem to be suggesting two different things, it stands to reason that one of them may be incorrect. While you seem to be willing to take whatever Ary says over whatever Stenger says, I am choosing a more cautious approach. Given Burke's history, I am surprised that you would be critical of such an approach.

Again, we shall see come June 22nd who is correct. You believe that construction will start as soon as the ground allows. We will know quite soon if you are correct. Of the two of us, you have a demonstrable history of providing ultimately false information regarding construction at Burke. While you claim that you used the best information at the time, I am merely asking you to consider that your sources may not be ultimately accurate. Your history bears this out.

Do I know when construction will start? Nope. But you have some real hutzpah taking me to task when you are the one who has a history of providing ultimately incorrect information. At best, you are a pot calling a kettle black. Again, I hope that you are correct and I am wrong. But if hope dictated reality, I would have been riding an East Bowl HSQ this winter.

 

[Masskier]

Did your source tell you this information? Let me set the record straight about the Ginn era. Ginn never had a controlling ownership interest in Burke. They had a very minority ownership interest (20%)and was the owners (Lupert-Adler) development partner. When Ginn went through their bankruptcy, The owners simply replaced Ginn with Crave Real Estate. Burke did not have any exposer to Ginns other resort properties. Ginn hasn't been around for a while (5-6 years) and certainly had no part in the sale to the current owners. There's no question that Burke needed a HSQ to the Summit in order to be viable and with the help and generosity of Mr Graham it happened. And because of the new lift Burke was able to attract an owner with ski resort experience.

 

[Smellytele]

You guys should just email each other.

 

[fbrissette]

You guys should just email each other.

What's the fun in that ?

 

[burski]

It will be interesting to see what happens this summer - I have heard mixed messages at the resort. The article below may also be somewhat telling from VT Business Magazine - they have been giving monthly or quarterly updates regarding all of the NEK / EB5 projects since they were announced. The last several updates have all included news about Burke (even thought there was no news). This update from last Friday makes no mention of any Burke related activity (when apparently there is big news around the corner...), either someone is continueing to drop the ball or something is up..

http://vermontbiz.com/news/april/ne...il&utm_term=0_85838110bc-e85c807b6d-286333017

 

[Masskier]

If, as you insist, construction is going to begin forthwith, some idiot voicing concerns on the Internet isn't going to make one bit of difference. I should hope that Burke's operation is not nearly as fragile as you are suggesting. I suggest that more damage is done by repeatedly assuring something that is never delivered. But who cares as long as it helps to sell condos. Shattered expectations are a lot less important once that check clears.

Don't you think that Stenger saying that it's only 25% funded, and making no reference to a start date, may carry a little more weight? Have you taken him to task? I bet not.

I have no reason to doubt that Ary told you that construction will commence forthwith. The fact that Ary said this does not, in and of itself, make it true.

Here are the facts that we know:
1) The hotel project has been delayed from its original start date.
2) Stenger has stated that Burke is only 25% funded.
3) Stenger made not mention of a start date for construction.
4) Stenger stated this during an interview wherein he was providing reassurance after an announced delay in another EB-5 project, and was trying to suggest that things in EB-5 land were still very much on track.
5) Ground was broken on the Stateside Hotel project at Jay Peak on April 29, 2013.
5) As of April 6th, there is no trailer or other tangible sign of pending activity at the Burke construction site.

These facts make me skeptical that construction will begin this spring. I may be wrong. I HOPE that I am wrong. But given the fact that Stenger and Ary apparently seem to be suggesting two different things, it stands to reason that one of them may be incorrect. While you seem to be willing to take whatever Ary says over whatever Stenger says, I am choosing a more cautious approach. Given Burke's history, I am surprised that you would be critical of such an approach.

Again, we shall see come June 22nd who is correct. You believe that construction will start as soon as the ground allows. We will know quite soon if you are correct. Of the two of us, you have a demonstrable history of providing ultimately false information regarding construction at Burke. While you claim that you used the best information at the time, I am merely asking you to consider that your sources may not be ultimately accurate. Your history bears this out.

Do I know when construction will start? Nope. But you have some real hutzpah taking me to task when you are the one who has a history of providing ultimately incorrect information. At best, you are a pot calling a kettle black. Again, I hope that you are correct and I am wrong. But if hope dictated reality, I would have been riding an East Bowl HSQ this winter.

Well written, however I certainly disagree with much you have to say. Yes, spreading unsubstantiated rumors do more harm than good. You state, " repeatedly assuring something that is never delivered". Never, is a long time. Just look at all of the tens of millions that has been invested at Burke since 2005. Some day when you are riding up that lift in the East Bowl area you may wonder how it became reality. It was certainly not built by the Nay Sayers.

The Comment about the Condos " who cares". Well, there is a lot of people who care. Obviously your not one of them. I personlly know the vast majority of owners on the mountain and I don't know one that has a "Shatterd expectation" Do you? I doubt that you do as most people love thier 2nd homes. I'm not even sure why you brought this up except to maybe insiuate that I don't care and would do anything to sell Condos. Well obviously you know my first name but have no clue of what I am about or my involvement with Burke since the early 2000's.

"Don't you think that Stenger saying that it's only 25% funded, and making no reference to a start date, may carry a little more weight? Have you taken him to task? I bet not."

Well your wrong. I met with Bill last month. Why would he annouce a hard start date? If he's off by a little if makes headlines. Look what happen at Stateside. He's delayed 3 months (waiting for his waste water and final act 250)

"I have no reason to doubt that Ary told you that construction will commence forthwith. The fact that Ary said this does not, in and of itself, make it true."

True, This is a major development, there could always be a last minute delay. Look what happend last year. However, as of right now its Full speed ahead.

"Here are the facts that we know:
1) The hotel project has been delayed from its original start date.
2) Stenger has stated that Burke is only 25% funded.
3) Stenger made not mention of a start date for construction.
4) Stenger stated this during an interview wherein he was providing reassurance after an announced delay in another EB-5 project, and was trying to suggest that things in EB-5 land were still very much on track.
5) Ground was broken on the Stateside Hotel project at Jay Peak on April 29, 2013.
5) As of April 6th, there is no trailer or other tangible sign of pending activity at the Burke construction site"

Agree with one and two only. 3 and 4, This is a perfect example of a pessimistic mind set. Lets just look at it form a neutral point of view and take if for what it says. The EB 5 projects are very much are track. 5, This has nothing to do with the Burke development irregardless when it started. and the other 5. Where would you suggest they put a job trailor? on top of the snow? in the parking lot? (they still have lifts turning next weekend) in the mud?

"These facts make me skeptical that construction will begin this spring. I may be wrong. I HOPE that I am wrong. But given the fact that Stenger and Ary apparently seem to be suggesting two different things, it stands to reason that one of them may be incorrect. While you seem to be willing to take whatever Ary says over whatever Stenger says, I am choosing a more cautious approach. Given Burke's history, I am surprised that you would be critical of such an approach."

You say, based on the logic you laid out, that they are suggesting differrent things. I don't agree with your logic no more than you will agree with mine. However I have spoken to both Bill and Ary and they are very much on the same page. I'm not criticle of taking a cautious approach. Cautious is good. I'm criticle of people spreading rumors.

So June 22nd is your date? My initial answer to your question was, They are starting as soon as the snow melts and ground stabilizes. That's the owners current plan. You stated that the hotel is not funded, and will probably never be funded. So therefore don't believe the hotel will ever be built. So this will be an exciting summer for Burke.

 

[VTKilarney]

You stated that the hotel is not funded, and will probably never be funded. So therefore don't believe the hotel will ever be built.

I don't want to rehash the same arguments, so I will leave things be. I did, however, want to yet again clarify that the only thing I have "stated" is what I have heard from others and mere opinions based on those statements. I do not claim to know anything definitively. I'm trying to read the tea leaves and nothing more.

If my suspicions are proven to be incorrect, I will do two things:
1) Freely admit that my suspicions were incorrect; and
2) Be VERY happy for Burke Mountain.

 

[VTKilarney]

The article below may also be somewhat telling from VT Business Magazine - they have been giving monthly or quarterly updates regarding all of the NEK / EB5 projects since they were announced.

On October 2, 2013 the Jay Peak Area Chamber of Commerce posted this EB-5 update regarding Burke on their website:

Construction will begin on the new five-story hotel at Q Burke Mountain Resort in early Spring. Bill Stenger announced that he and his construction team have made a decision to delay ground breaking this Fall to avoid potential weather setbacks. Although the project could have started after the final permits were received in August, they based the decision on their experience with recent winter construction projects at Jay Peak Resort. He predicted that the construction team will make up time during the 2014 construction season.

The contact person is Jay's EB-5 Project Manager.

Apparently everything is in place and this was solely a weather based decision. I guess if I look out of my window I'll see trucks rolling through on their way to the mountain any day now. After all, construction will commence in early spring.

 

[Masskier]

I don't want to rehash the same arguments, so I will leave things be. I did, however, want to yet again clarify that the only thing I have "stated" is what I have heard from others and mere opinions based on those statements. I do not claim to know anything definitively. I'm trying to read the tea leaves and nothing more.

If my suspicions are proven to be incorrect, I will do two things:
1) Freely admit that my suspicions were incorrect; and
2) Be VERY happy for Burke Mountain.

Fine, we can finally agree on something.

 

[from_the_NEK]

On October 2, 2013 the Jay Peak Area Chamber of Commerce posted this EB-5 update regarding Burke on their website:

Construction will begin on the new five-story hotel at Q Burke Mountain Resort in early Spring. Bill Stenger announced that he and his construction team have made a decision to delay ground breaking this Fall to avoid potential weather setbacks. Although the project could have started after the final permits were received in August, they based the decision on their experience with recent winter construction projects at Jay Peak Resort. He predicted that the construction team will make up time during the 2014 construction season.

The contact person is Jay's EB-5 Project Manager.

Apparently everything is in place and this was solely a weather based decision. I guess if I look out of my window I'll see trucks rolling through on their way to the mountain any day now. After all, construction will commence in early spring.

The previous two springs they would have been able to start. This spring, not so much. Even construction projects in the valley in Lyndonville are on hold until the weather "improves".

 

[Big Wave Dave]

whoo boy, this is a good one. I have been gone too long!

not going to get in the weeds here but this weekends Cal Record article about the Stateside delays said ground is breaking on the hotel this May. Quote from the online edition

"The delay has no effect on other plans as part of the Northeast Kingdom Economic Development Initiative projects in Newport City and Burke, Stenger said.

Stenger and partners are expecting the Newport City Development Review Board to consider a permit application for a site plan for the proposed AnC Bio Vermont research and manufacturing plant at the Jay Peak Biomedical Research Park, the former Bogner site in Newport City.

The planned construction of two lodges at Q Burke Mountain is going ahead as scheduled, he said, with preparations for site and foundation work in May."

So from the standpoint of interested passive observer, seems like Masskier may in fact have accurate information. I do hope so.

But lets have a Kumbaya moment here though- the skiing is so unbelievably good at Burke right now we should all be away from our computers and on the slopes. Yesterday was just unreal. Cant wait for the next sunny day.