Big Burke announcement

[Masskier]

Oh, I feel much better now. This could have just been false advertising. And here I thought that people might have been upset?

In all seriousness, given this advertising, as well as the statements of investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return, the burden is on you to prove that something different was in a contract.

And this still does nothing to change the reality that we know that Phase 1 investors are still left hanging - and what that means in a competitive marketplace.

"In all seriousness, given this advertising, as well as the statements of investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return, the burden is on you to prove that something different was in a contract."

You made the statement I didn't, I questioned the validity of it and suggested that if in fact there was a default (which is what you are saying) then it would be all over the news. You provided the video to support your statement. No where in the video does it say that there was a 5 year payback, instead the Atty stated that he was tying up his money for many years. You then were nice enough to provide a link to some promotional flyer which indeed used the 5 year as one of its bullets.

We do know this however, all 35 phase I investors own the hotel. So they have the equity as collateral for their investment. So if there was a default it would be pretty easy to remedy through a sale or refinance and get all or most of their money back.


" as well as the statements of investors saying that they were promised a 5 year return,"

Do you have anything credible to back this up? Seriously I and I am sure others would like to know.

 

[bigbog]

It has been more than interesting to watch the discussions about the hotel(s) since I began this thread over 18 months ago, and, despite my earlier cautions regarding the scale of the hotel(s) project - Hotel Burke - it is clear that my native/local perspective is not in the majority column. Every time I look at that location from afar and try to visualize the complex I am still amazed that it has sailed through the process and has such a large support base among the Burke community, which in my mind is clearly a non-native, used to growth and change, and beds no matter what, group (I'm sure I'll hear about that one!). The hotel(s) has been marketed and sold as single structure but in reality it is TWO Tram Haus Lodge 58-room hotels joined together by a lower roofline base lodge that will fill the appointed field and dominate the landscape for many, many miles around. And, as to construction, it is real for June, at least the groundwork. Maybe that will get some attention.................

Ahh TRTB,
Yeah the people with stuff in their very deep pockets lack the stuff upstairs when it comes to keeping the neighborhood beautiful...as motha nature left it when the last ice age left the area.......ie the p*ssing contest never ends..in their minds.

 

[VTKilarney]

That's the part I don't get. If there is the need to dangle a greencard in your face to get your money, you should automatically know that it is a high risk investment.

If you expect to get your money back AND a return on investment AND a green card, I think you're being unrealistic, no mater how it is marketed.

I don't think that anyone is under the illusion that these are risk-free investments. I think the fundamental shift in the market is that, due to increased competition, investors are now able to weigh risk among many projects and choose the perceived least risky endeavor. Jay Peak is somewhat unfortunate in that they have a track record that isn't terribly appealing compared to what other people are promising (even if their promises are not ultimately fulfilled).

There is another potential obstacle. The Feds are really cracking down on employment estimates. From what I have read, the process had been a joke. They have now hired many new people including, for the first time, actual economists to review job creation estimates. Jay Peak has never had an issue on that front, so perhaps it is not an issue today. On the other hand, Jay Peak may have just been lucky due to the lack of oversight. I really don't know.

Another problem with the EB-5 system seems to be the lack of oversight. Jay Peak should be commended in that no investor has sued them, and they have a phenomenal track record of getting visas approved. On the other hand, you have (non-Jay Peak) projects where investors have alleged outright fraud. Surely these allegations alone are causing investors to be much more critical.

The systemic problem is that the government is promising a benefit without any assurance of the fundamentals of the investment they require you to make to get the governmental benefit. IMHO, they really should do some oversight.

 

[VTKilarney]

Do you have anything credible to back this up? Seriously I and I am sure others would like to know.

Let me make this very simple. Everything I have read indicates that the Phase I investors were promised a 5 year return on their investment. This includes statements from people claiming to be investors as well as promotional material. You can believe it or not. Assuming you are a logical and rational person, it is reasonable to believe something for which no evidence to the contrary exists.

So with that in mind, let me ask you a very simple question: Do you have any evidence whatsoever that suggests that the Phase I investors were not led to believe that there would be a return on investment in 5 years? If you don't, then debating with you is like Galileo debating with the Pope. We all know how that turned out.

If you have any such thing, then just tell us. That's how normal engage in constructive debate.

I also wish to make an important clarification. My understanding is that Phase 1 investors were led to believe that they would have their investment back after 5 years. I am not suggesting that later investors were led to believe this.

 

[the original trailboss]

Most people come here because it is a very special and unique place (ice age?) But it appears that profit and greed hold more interest for some as opposed to retaining what makes it so special. We have an opportunity in the NEK to do RIGHT what so many others have done wrong. My bottom line here is "remember what brought you here in the first place! People who are here just for their own self-interest belong somewhere else.

 

[VTKilarney]

Masskier,

Let me ask you one other simple question so we can move forward with the dialogue. Do you believe that Stenger is experiencing difficulty attracting EB-5 investors at the pace he had originally anticipated for the yet-to-be constructed projects he has announced? A simple yes or no will suffice.

Assuming you agree, what matters is that investors are not showing up as anticipated. There is no point in debating the minutia as to why they aren't showing up - and/or the accuracy of that minutia. That's a complete distraction from a discussion about the consequences of the actual problem.

 

[VTKilarney]

Things have just gotten very interesting.

In his email to the press after Pomerleau pulled the plug on the sale of land for Stenger's waterfront hotel, Stenger stated the following:
"We both agree strongly that the Marina, Hotel and Conference Center would be a good thing for the City of Newport as it would bring many good paying jobs to the area and economic benefits for decades to come. Unfortunately, the Federal Government has slowed down the processing of EB-5 applications and this has led to certain delays in project development. While this is frustrating for all involved, we are hopeful that the processing times will return to normal shortly."

In an interview with the Burlington Free Press, Stenger said that because of backlogs in the EB-5 process in the federal government, he’s six months behind where he wants to be on the lakefront project in Newport.

VTDigger has just released an article about the Pomerleau/Stenger affair. This article has a very interesting revelation:
"Neither project is enrolled in the EB-5 program, which is the source of funding for the other Stenger and Quiros projects. Brent Raymond, director of the state-run EB-5 Regional Center, said no application materials have yet been received for the Renaissance and conference center projects."

(Article here: http://vtdigger.org/2014/05/07/newport-waterfront-development-falls/ )

So the Feds taking longer to process EB-5 applications has slowed down the Waterfront project even though no application has been submitted?

 

[thetrailboss]

Was going to say that apparently Pomerleau has issued one final ultimatum:

http://caledonianrecord.com/main.asp?SectionID=180&SubSectionID=778&ArticleID=111277

 

[thetrailboss]

Things have just gotten very interesting.

In his email to the press after Pomerleau pulled the plug on the sale of land for Stenger's waterfront hotel, Stenger stated the following:
"We both agree strongly that the Marina, Hotel and Conference Center would be a good thing for the City of Newport as it would bring many good paying jobs to the area and economic benefits for decades to come. Unfortunately, the Federal Government has slowed down the processing of EB-5 applications and this has led to certain delays in project development. While this is frustrating for all involved, we are hopeful that the processing times will return to normal shortly."

In an interview with the Burlington Free Press, Stenger said that because of backlogs in the EB-5 process in the federal government, he’s six months behind where he wants to be on the lakefront project in Newport.

VTDigger has just released an article about the Pomerleau/Stenger affair. This article has a very interesting revelation:
"Neither project is enrolled in the EB-5 program, which is the source of funding for the other Stenger and Quiros projects. Brent Raymond, director of the state-run EB-5 Regional Center, said no application materials have yet been received for the Renaissance and conference center projects."

(Article here: http://vtdigger.org/2014/05/07/newport-waterfront-development-falls/ )

So the Feds taking longer to process EB-5 applications has slowed down the Waterfront project even though no application has been submitted?

On your flier for the South Africa tour they listed Burke, AnCBio, and something in Newport IIRC. So the hotel was not one of the EB-5 projects?

And this is not the first time that Stenger has had a hard time getting money for what he wants to do, hence EB-5!

 

[thetrailboss]

Most people come here because it is a very special and unique place (ice age?) But it appears that profit and greed hold more interest for some as opposed to retaining what makes it so special. We have an opportunity in the NEK to do RIGHT what so many others have done wrong. My bottom line here is "remember what brought you here in the first place! People who are here just for their own self-interest belong somewhere else.

Amen

 

[VTKilarney]

On your flier for the South Africa tour they listed Burke, AnCBio, and something in Newport IIRC. So the hotel was not one of the EB-5 projects?

It only listed AnC and Q-Burke as current projects. I hadn't picked up on that.

 

[thetrailboss]

It only listed AnC and Q-Burke as current projects. I hadn't picked up on that.

That is a change. I recall that the airport, Newport projects, factory projects, and resort projects were all supposed to be EB-5 funded. And slowly they have pulled some of these into private funding. The airport work is private.

 

[Big Wave Dave]

I bet Tony Pomerleau could raise the EB 5 money!

VT Kilarney- you have proven an excellent source of information, although you do seem a bit... aggressive At the sake of having my head ripped off for being a Q shill (again), I would love more details on why your "source" is so confident the hotel is not being built. At the end of the day, like I have said, I am very interested in the hotel project, what it means when Stenger says Burke is 25% funded, and how these two pieces of information relate. Any information, even speculative, is welcome by me. My understanding was that the full burke project was 25% funded- is this wrong, and only 25% of the $25mm for the hotel has been raised? What percentage of this money is locked up due to the EB-5 backlog? I get that this information is likely not known exactly, or at all, but welcome your opinion.

I also think the risk management is taking by speaking publicly about funding numbers has to have some sort of calculation behind it. i fail to believe these numbers are being made up and publicly announced with no basis in reality, the blowback potential with an empircal value as a benchmark is enormous.

 

[VTKilarney]

BWD,

My apologies for getting wound up. When someone tries to derail a conversation because of a personal bias, I tend to react strongly. We all have a bias here and there, but most of us can contain them. But I need to learn to not feed the trolls.


As of now, I don't have any secret information that makes my opinion anything other than that - an opinion. I'm just trying to read the tea leaves like anybody else. Those tea leaves tell me that the engine is not firing on all cylinders. If that's the case, this could have a dramatic impact on a mountain like Burke. I'd just rather be prepared, rather than blindly following. That's just my nature. That and I like the mental exercise.

I still believe that the hotel can be built. I truly do. I'm just not assuming that it will be. That's all.

Burke is a great mountain, but it demands great leadership. I hope it has that.

 

[Masskier]

Well, The ground has thawed. The site is drying up nicely. Hotel is moving forward as per the most recent plans. Lots of things are in motion. I would expect ground breaking in early to mid June.

Now, I know this is contrary to many people who believe;
1. That the hotel isn't funded;
2. or that the cash is not there to start construction
3. or in light of all that's been happening it is doubtful whether they will be able to raise enough funds to build the hotel

Disclaimer; I am bias. I have worked many years to help Burke become sustainable. I am invested on the mountain and in the community. I believe that the hotel is critical not only to help sustain the ski area but also for the economic health of the community

In reading back from page 105, I've been criticized, insulted and called names. And I thought that I was answering a simple question about the status of the hotel. lol. I think it is obvious that some of you are just as bias as I am. Except you only want to see the negative. When things are said that don't seem right to me, I question it and ask for it to be substantiated. Sometimes it is and other times it's not and the tone becomes aggressive. So in light of everything VTK, unless there is an act of God or a new major set back, Those trucks will soon be going by your house. And that should be good news for everyone who cares for Burke and the surrounding area.

And the source of my information today is "meetings with people at Burke", "conversations with Peak CM employees" and meetings at BMA.

 

[VTKilarney]

If this indeed happens, it is fantastic news!

Any discussion on the time frame for completion?

If you have felt needled, it's generally when you obfuscate or throw logic and/or reason out the window. If you don't do that, I think the discussion would be much more productive and therefore not adversarial.

 

[VTKilarney]

Masskier,

Based on your conversations, how much of the hotel is actually funded? Assuming they need 100% funding to finish construction, this would be important, no? Is there any indication whatsoever that they may need to terminate construction prior to completion? I'm hoping the answer is no.

 

[thetrailboss]

Disclaimer; I am bias. I have worked many years to help Burke become sustainable. I am invested on the mountain and in the community. I believe that the hotel is critical not only to help sustain the ski area but also for the economic health of the community

I think we all have this interest; but if you're going to be making a disclaimer then you should add that you have a significant monetary interest involved in Burke. You admitted this openly a few years back when Riverc0il brought it up.

In reading back from page 105, I've been criticized, insulted and called names. And I thought that I was answering a simple question about the status of the hotel. lol.

Criticized and questioned yes. That is to be expected.

I think it is obvious that some of you are just as bias as I am. Except you only want to see the negative. When things are said that don't seem right to me, I question it and ask for it to be substantiated. Sometimes it is and other times it's not and the tone becomes aggressive.

In my experience, folks are fine unless they are questioned or probed regarding their views. And then all the sudden they complain it is "personal". If you think that this place is aggressive or bad then I invite you to engage in conversation on TGR. You would have already been eaten alive there Masskier. I think that folks here have challenged others and you in particular. Is it deserved? You may not think so, but in my years on here and seeing you involved in Burke talk you've said some things that you've been called out for. We all would have been.

I chuckle at this whole "you're all negative" line. Those of us who have generations in the NEK have a lot of experience with multiple ownerships at Burke. We've been burned a lot. In Vermont people really are down to Earth and have always struggled so they are naturally skeptical of things. We're hardened by all the failures. Here we've been discussing a lot of things that are publicly reported and I think that there is cause to be concerned. I haven't heard you say one thing in response to Pomerleau's actions and his message to the public that Stenger doesn't have the cash. Obviously that conflicts with your monetary interest, so I can understand why you stay quiet. But to dismiss the increasingly growing pile of facts and concerns as "negativity" I think is not right and perhaps condescending because you're outright dismissing other folks' POV that are different than yours (and sometimes have in the end been right).

And that leads to one last comment I will make is that a lot of folks who ski at Burke are native Vermonters, or folks who were born and raised there for multiple generations. They're not folks whose worth can be assessed in terms of monetary wealth. I will speak for myself in saying that we are generally resourceful, genuine, and frank. I've been pretty frank about things and will be on this point: folks who are not originally from the area and come in looking to prove something to or seek to show that they are better than others is not appreciated. It crashes and burns. I've seen it in so many areas. I've seen some of that attitude and I don't take to kindly to it considering that because I'm from the NEK I am not the stereotypical "heathen" or uneducated hick.

That's all. I'm going skiing this weekend. That makes me happy.

That's all.

 

[thetrailboss]

...and I just went to Page 105 and see nothing in the way of name calling.

 

[dlague]

I think we all have this interest; but if you're going to be making a disclaimer then you should add that you have a significant monetary interest involved in Burke.



Criticized and questioned yes. That is to be expected.



In my experience, folks are fine unless they are questioned or probed regarding their views. And then all the sudden they complain it is "personal". If you think that this place is aggressive or bad then I invite you to engage in conversation on TGR. You would have already been eaten alive there Masskier. I think that folks here have challenged others and you in particular. Is it deserved? You may not think so, but in my years on here and seeing you involved in Burke talk you've said some things that you've been called out for. We all would have been.

I chuckle at this whole "you're all negative" line. Those of us who have generations in the NEK have a lot of experience with multiple ownerships at Burke. We've been burned a lot. In Vermont people really are down to Earth and have always struggled so they are naturally skeptical of things. We're hardened by all the failures. Here we've been discussing a lot of things that are publicly reported and I think that there is cause to be concerned. I haven't heard you say one thing in response to Pomerleau's actions and his message to the public that Stenger doesn't have the cash. Obviously that conflicts with your monetary interest, so I can understand why you stay quiet. But to dismiss the increasingly growing pile of facts and concerns as "negativity" I think is not right and perhaps condescending because you're outright dismissing other folks' POV that are different than yours (and sometimes have in the end been right).

And that leads to one last comment I will make is that a lot of folks who ski at Burke are native Vermonters, or folks who were born and raised there for multiple generations. They're not folks whose worth can be assessed in terms of monetary wealth. I will speak for myself in saying that we are generally resourceful, genuine, and frank. I've been pretty frank about things and will be on this point: folks who are not originally from the area and come in looking to prove something to or seek to show that they are better than others is not appreciated. It crashes and burns. I've seen it in so many areas. I've seen some of that attitude and I don't take to kindly to it considering that because I'm from the NEK I am not the stereotypical "heathen" or uneducated hick.

That's all. I'm going skiing this weekend. That makes me happy.

That's all.

Well, I like you, am from NEK and skied Jay Peak and Burke as home mountains! All of this is a distraction and though I do not express an opinion I have seen many failures in Newport as well as changed at Burke! I hope everything works out all over NEK for my friends and family that are still there.

We like Burke and do not want to see a repeat of the 90's









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