Burke Poma

[oldtimer]

So, the time has come and BMA has announced that they are funding a T-Bar to replace the Poma. (sad day). The press release says it will be a "high speed" T-bar. I have never seen a detachable t-bar, but according to the Leitner-Poma web site, that is a thing. Doe the sticks stack like a Poma lift, or do they stay on the wire except for load/unload.

Having empty t's running ud the hill will tear up the track terribly on the top pitch. The year the Poma sticks stayed on the wire full time was a nighttmare for the track above turn tower.

 

[thetrailboss]

So, the time has come and BMA has announced that they are funding a T-Bar to replace the Poma. (sad day). The press release says it will be a "high speed" T-bar. I have never seen a detachable t-bar, but according to the Leitner-Poma web site, that is a thing. Doe the sticks stack like a Poma lift, or do they stay on the wire except for load/unload.

Having empty t's running ud the hill will tear up the track terribly on the top pitch. The year the Poma sticks stayed on the wire full time was a nighttmare for the track above turn tower.

Will be very interesting to see. I know that they were pushing to get it in this season but that obviously is not happening.

 

[The Sneak]

Wouldn't it be like Bretton Woods' new t-bar? Those don't touch the ground.


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[oldtimer]

Might be- certainly the cable/rope type can be done so they do not hit the ground. The weird thing is that the Burke press release talks about 3X uphill capacity. I get 2x if the rope speed is the same as the old Poma. 3X means faster rope speed. The Leitner-Poma website talks about a "hi-speed" T-bar for advanced terrain versus low speed for beginners. I am having a hard time believing that a rope coil type t-bar (as in the upper T at Sugarloaf) would have a rope speed substantially faster than an old school Poma lift? Could be that Burke has had to slow the Poma down in recent years and that is their comparison.

Wouldn't it be like Bretton Woods' new t-bar? Those don't touch the ground.


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[SIKSKIER]

Here is Leitner-Poma's detach t-bar info.Didn't know there was such an animal:
Leitner-Poma
Surface Ski Lifts
Leitner-Poma manufactures T-bar ski lifts, and rope tows. Typically, surface lifts are designed for short line lengths, to be operated at reduced speeds, and are intended for beginners. The detachable grip ski lift is an exception to standard surface lifts capable of longer lengths, faster speeds, and extreme weather conditions.

The Leitner-Poma detachable grip surface lifts offer operating speeds from 1.4 meters per second to more than 4 meters per second (250-775 ft/min). They are equipped with slide racks that can store more than two hundred towhangers, depending on the model. The detachable grip skilifts also have the option of the towbar releasing at the return terminal for bullwheel unloading (DDH patented model). This increases the safety and confidence for beginners, and enhances the enjoyment of all levels of skiers. The DDH model of return terminal can be installed with a new detachable skilift, or retrofitted to an existing one. Detachable grip ski lifts can be installed on lengths up to 6000 ft and angles of 32 degrees along the alignment.

The Leitner-Poma fixed grip surface lift is the ideal lift for ski school areas, terrain parks, short length transportation, and ski race training hills. The speed is typically less than 350 ft/min and the line lengths are 500 to 1000 ft.

The Leitner-Poma T-bar is the ideal lift for areas which experience great variations in snow depth, as on slopes with relatively irregular profiles. Normally equipped with T-bar seats, a platter seat alternative is also available. Typically, the speed of the line is 650 ft/min.

 

[SIKSKIER]

And now I see that the first one was installed in France......in1936.What?http://www.poma.net/en/solutions-2/products/surface-lift/

 

[ceo]

Huh. I don't think I've ever heard of a detachable surface lift that's a T-bar as opposed to a Poma. I'm pretty sure a retracting T-bar can be faster anyway; I'm thinking of the old Upper T-bars at Cannon that were definitely faster than the Burke Poma.

I'll have to get to Burke this season to ride the thing again; it's one of only two detachable Pomas in New England and the only one with a turn.

 

[VTKilarney]

Huh. I don't think I've ever heard of a detachable surface lift that's a T-bar as opposed to a Poma. I'm pretty sure a retracting T-bar can be faster anyway; I'm thinking of the old Upper T-bars at Cannon that were definitely faster than the Burke Poma.

I'll have to get to Burke this season to ride the thing again; it's one of only two detachable Pomas in New England and the only one with a turn.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that the general public can use it.

 

[Newpylong]

It was always open to public when
we raced there.

 

[dlague]

It was always open to public when
we raced there.

That is true! We have used it in the past and were not racing or race training.

 

[mister moose]

Huh. I don't think I've ever heard of a detachable surface lift that's a T-bar as opposed to a Poma. I'm pretty sure a retracting T-bar can be faster anyway; I'm thinking of the old Upper T-bars at Cannon that were definitely faster than the Burke Poma.

I'll have to get to Burke this season to ride the thing again; it's one of only two detachable Pomas in New England and the only one with a turn.

I can think of 4 T-bar manufacturers:

Constam - Installed the first in the US at Pico. Not sure what else they did. This was a retractable cable T, wooden towers, and a different (straight) carrier arm than Dopplemayer.

Dopplemeyer - The most prolific I think. The T is almost identical to Constam, but the housing and carrier arm was updated. I remember the Dopplemeyer T at at Ski Sundown, Otis Ridge, Jay Peak, among others.

Hall T-bar. This is the long, heavy, spring loaded extension T. There is no retractable cable. The steel tube is telescoping with an internal spring that was usually worn out. This is the current T-bar on Horseshoe Bowl at Breck and Bromely. Mueller T-bars have an identical look. These T's cannot be rotated, whereas the Dopplemeyer T can be held at any angle. Consequently, when riding with a child you can tilt the bar lower for the child, but on a Hall you have to let the whole bar ride low. Also when riding a Dopplemeyer alone you can swing it between your legs poma style and be very balanced and comfortable, no can do with a Hall. The downside is that the Dopplemeyer will tilt towards the heavier skier. The hall bar will always remain perfectly perpendicular to the lift line.

With respect to a poma with a turn, the original Poma on the south side of Horseshoe Bowl had 2 turns following the curved rim. It's gone now.

I've ridden a lot of T-bars and Pomas. The fastest Poma is way faster than any T-bar I was on. There were some fixed grip pomas made for novice slopes, and they ran very slow. The fastest pomas I ever saw were in Canada at Mt St Anne. They loaded in cattle chutes about 3 feet wide, 8 feet tall and 30 feet long. The idea was the chute would keep your skis from splaying out at the launch. The force of the launch lifted me off the ground, which never happened on any US poma.

 

[steamboat1]

The force of the launch lifted me off the ground, which never happened on any US poma.

I guess you never rode the old green poma at Okemo.

 

[oldtimer]

In the last year or 2 the Burke Poma has been for race pass holders only. As with all things Burke, a smile and wink will usually get you on if it is not busy. Last year I would say the mountain seemed to coordinate the lift schedule with BMA's schedule since it only ran when there was training or racing.

Launching- when they ran the Poma's at Hickory full speed you could definitely get quite a ride out of the box. I think they have dialed back the rope speed in order to preserve their aging infrastructure.

 

[thetrailboss]

The Caledonian article on the Poma:

EAST BURKE — The award of a $240,000 grant to Burke Mountain Academy’s newly-formed nonprofit, Burke Racing, in recent days brings the school one step closer toward replacing its outdated POMA lift, according to the independent ski academy.

On Friday, the grant was announced as part of a group of regional awards, during an event at Fairbanks Museum in St. Johnsbury. U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy and Congressman Peter Welch were on hand to celebrate with the local recipients of the grants, which total $1.8 million.

The $240,000 grant to Burke Racing, the 501c3 nonprofit formed to support Burke Mountain Academy’s (BMA) efforts to become a leading training site in the United States, was awarded by the Northern Borders Regional Commission, according to an announcement issued by BMA.

BMA has shared the POMA lift with the skiing public to access its training venue at Burke Mountain for more than half a century, and is working to replace the lift “with a new state-of-the-art high speed T-bar which will more than triple the uphill capacity of skiers and support the mountain’s vision to become a leading training site in the United States.”

The project builds on the school’s other significant project announced recently – the construction of the Ronnie Berlack Center, a $3 million indoor training facility set to open this fall.

Head of School Jory Macomber (BMA ‘80), in an announcement after the grant was made public Friday, said, “The two projects are related to BMA’s overall strategy to deliver world-class athletic development to its students and position Burke as a leading regional alpine ski racing training site.”

“This mountain has already produced many world and Olympic standouts such as recent BMA alum and current world and Olympic Champion Mikaela Shiffrin,” Macomber said. “With the new T-bar we’ll be in a strong position to attract racers from all over the region and the broader skiing public to Burke Mountain.”

“By organizing a grassroots effort to improve infrastructure and amenities on the mountain, we not only hope to enhance athlete training and skier experiences but we also aim to contribute to local job creation and rejuvenate the ski hill, specifically facilitating support for snow making, ski lift and related upgrades,” said Ken Graham, vice chair of BMA’s board of trustees and school alumnus, in the school’s announcement.

Under the terms of the grant agreement, BMA’s new nonprofit entity, Burke Racing, will acquire and own certain ski lift and snowmaking assets and, in turn, enter a long-term lease arrangement with Burke Mountain which will operate the assets and will benefit from a low cost option to purchase the equipment at lease end, the BMA news release stated.

“All of these enhancements will inevitably increase the mountain’s appeal for the attraction of future investors,” stated Graham.

Over the coming months, Burke Racing will be focused on raising additional funds to complete the T-bar project which it hopes will be installed in the spring/summer 2017 and ready for use in the winter 2017-2018, the school’s announcement stated.

Grant Application Details Difficulties Under Quiros Ownership of Burke Mountain

The past few years the partnership between Burke Mountain Resort, which was under the ownership of the Quiros family, and the school had deteriorated, according to the grant application filed with the commission.

After the mountain was sold to the Quiros family in 2012, the school “raised substantial funding to contribute to the newly-named Q Burke’s first phase snow making improvement plan as a show of good faith and partnership. That spirit of partnership was not reciprocated during the Quiros ownership.”

The resort fell into federal receivership in early April, after federal and state authorities made public allegations that Ariel Quiros Sr. and his business partner, Bill Stenger, had allegedly been conducting a Ponzi-like scheme at Jay Peak and Burke Mountain for eight years.

“In the past several years in particular, Q-Burke has systematically ignored or failed to meet its contractual obligations to BMA to deliver ski-able terrain in the early season resulting in costly travel for BMA to meet the minimum training standard of days-on-snow, and leading to the cancellation of scheduled camps and races to the detriment of both BMA and mountain revenue generation.”

The grant application noted the troubles at the mountain which also hurt BMA, “Of all the mountains in Vermont with over 2,000 vertical feet of elevation, Q-Burke was the only mountain that was not in operation during the Christmas holiday week this past season. The mountain’s successful operation is critical to BMA’s ability to attract and retain promising ski racers and conduct its mission.”

Since the federal receivership came into place at the resort, BMA has been actively working “to establish a working dialogue with the receiver, offering guidance and potential solutions to benefit investors as well as the mountain’s key stakeholders.”

Friends of Burke Mountain in recent days shared a copy of their letter supporting Burke Racing’s grant application to the Northern Border Regional Commission.

“We all believe that Burke Racing’s proposal to partner with the U.S. Ski Team to have Burke Mountain designated as an official U.S. Ski Team Development Site as part of an overall plan to improve Burke Mountain as a recreational area and a four-season resort, has the potential to create much-needed jobs and economic opportunity in the Northeast Kingdom and to serve the interests of all the mountain’s stakeholders.”

 

[Smellytele]

"Burke Racing’s proposal to partner with the U.S. Ski Team to have Burke Mountain designated as an official U.S. Ski Team Development Site"

So there would be 2 in the East?

 

[thetrailboss]

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/08/burke-mountain-academy-awarded-240000-triple-t-bar/

 

[from_the_NEK]

http://vtdigger.org/2016/08/08/burke-mountain-academy-awarded-240000-triple-t-bar/

What is a "triple-t-bar"? :idea:

 

[Jully]

What is a "triple-t-bar"? :idea:

Very intrigued...

 

[oldtimer]

I think we have a mangling of concepts here. I think what they are saying is that they will be putting in a detachable t-bar. regular 2-person t-bar with detachable sticks. The detachable loading and unloading and newer technology will allow a higher rope speed than the current Poma. Thus you get to triple the capacity by going from 1 rider to 2 per stick AND then a 25% increase in rope speed- that gets you triple the capacity.

That said, I have never seen a detachable T-bar, although Leightner-Poma does refer to them on its website.

What is a "triple-t-bar"? :idea: