Summer 2018 Northeast Offseason Improvements

[Jully]

In my opinion, Boyne's handling of their lift system (not maintenance, but vision) leaves much to be desired.

-Spruce FG Triple instead of FG Quad. They say the trail layout is better fit for a triple, but this move was just not forward thinking. You run less chairs if you're concerned about downhill traffic.
-Carpet loader on Tempest is a royal waste of time, they're only going to get 50 FPM out of it. That is a critical lift that most complain about. It needs to be a HSQ - reusing the towers and starting right outside the lodge, extending up a little higher with some trail work for improved access to Obsession. People might actually ski over there more if the lift wasn't the worst ever.
-New Loon gondola cabins - waste of money.
-No movement at all at the Loaf outside of Skyline which only went in because of the double failure.

End of my rant, which I usually refrain from doing.

Agree with every point here. Spruce really confused me. Rumor from SR I heard was that they got a great deal on the triple and wanted to reuse the carpet loader. $2.1 million for a new lift (I think was the price) does seem to be quite a good deal. No idea what Dopp would have given them for a FGQ price though.

The fact that SR says there are 25 years of life left in Tempest is really disheartening. I'm sure they are not wrong, but it just means it is going no where. Its especially frustrating because they don't want to replace it because no one uses the area, but no one uses the area because the lift sucks! Same is said for the lodge there too. Best spot on the mountain to be on a warm April day.

 

[sull1102]

In my opinion, Boyne's handling of their lift system (not maintenance, but vision) leaves much to be desired.

-Spruce FG Triple instead of FG Quad. They say the trail layout is better fit for a triple, but this move was just not forward thinking. You run less chairs if you're concerned about downhill traffic.
-Carpet loader on Tempest is a royal waste of time, they're only going to get 50 FPM out of it. That is a critical lift that most complain about. It needs to be a HSQ - reusing the towers and starting right outside the lodge, extending up a little higher with some trail work for improved access to Obsession. People might actually ski over there more if the lift wasn't the worst ever.
-New Loon gondola cabins - waste of money.
-No movement at all at the Loaf outside of Skyline which only went in because of the double failure.

End of my rant, which I usually refrain from doing.

Agree with everything you listed and then some other moves they have made as well. Some moves make literally no sense, Loon could've just deep cleaned the gondi cabins and waited a few years until they go for a full replacement. Others, like you said just no forward thinking. Why go for a triple in 2018? I honestly think they might have gotten a deal on it because it was some left over stock or something, there just aren't many triples going in these days.

 

[deadheadskier]

I gotta give Boyne a bit of a pass because of the whole CNL thing. It seems as though the CNL holdings didn't do much in New England for major lift improvements since they took over in 2008.

About all there's been aside from emergency replacements with fiscally responsible repairs has been adding the Northstar six pack to Okemo, moving that HSQ to Sunapee and then Sunday River adding the Chondola. I guess Okemo added the lift below Southface, but that appears to be real estate funded and motivated.

Have to assume that much of the lack of lift improvements in recent years with Boyne and Triple Peaks has to do with CNL.

Boyne is the owner again of Loon, SR and SL. Probably cost them a ton to do and will take a few solid profit years to seriously invest again in big ticket itema.

Gondi car purchase at Loon is obviously puzzling. Unless it's part of a larger vision like my Loaf/Bucksaw idea. But honestly, as much as the Gondola sucks, I think the biggest priority at Loon should be replacing Seven Brothers with a HS6. Move the masses out that base area to either get to the North Peak area, hit the park or access the longest beginner trails on the hill.

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[machski]

I gotta give Boyne a bit of a pass because of the whole CNL thing. It seems as though the CNL holdings didn't do much in New England for major lift improvements since they took over in 2008.

About all there's been aside from emergency replacements with fiscally responsible repairs has been adding the Northstar six pack to Okemo, moving that HSQ to Sunapee and then Sunday River adding the Chondola. I guess Okemo added the lift below Southface, but that appears to be real estate funded and motivated.

Have to assume that much of the lack of lift improvements in recent years with Boyne and Triple Peaks has to do with CNL.

Boyne is the owner again of Loon, SR and SL. Probably cost them a ton to do and will take a few solid profit years to seriously invest again in big ticket itema.

Gondi car purchase at Loon is obviously puzzling. Unless it's part of a larger vision like my Loaf/Bucksaw idea. But honestly, as much as the Gondola sucks, I think the biggest priority at Loon should be replacing Seven Brothers with a HS6. Move the masses out that base area to either get to the North Peak area, hit the park or access the longest beginner trails on the hill.

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Seven Bros was supposed to be replaced with a HSQ and the triple moved to East Basin. Obviously neither happened. May get replaced with a HSQ but I can't see a HSS there ever. Both the load and unload areas are tight (well, the load has some room but that whole area on weekends/peak days is already a cluster F) and the trails just don't need that volume deposited out there. The only place on Loon that could have handled a 6 in my opinion was Lincoln Express. I kind of doubt the Gondi gets changed out inside of a decade, they really need to complete South and get a real learning pod up and running. It's the one thing Loon has always severely lacked and South needs a real base. The tent lodge was fine for a few years but is long past being acceptable.

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[machski]

14 blowouts!!! Glad they pulled the trigger on replacement. I am hopeful they get back to what they were for snow making. I still remember a few years back when there wasn't any natural snow to speak of and the River still gave us a season with their snow making. Wasn't that the year they did over 100 days of snow making?

14, 8 hell even 3 is too many, especially when your SR and your reputation has been built on great, reliable conditions because of your superior Snowmaking system. Not to mention they were supposed to be done with the plan to DOUBLE water push by now, but that all got delayed and now places like Snow have passed SR in terms of volume and others like Stowe are nearly on par if not slightly ahead. This is a long needed first step to gearing up the system. I believe a second feed line coming in on the west side from the river is still on deck to go to doubling water, which would put 16000+ gpm on the hill. I still believe to make use of that pump capacity, they will have to automate at least some of the system (either fully or semi-auto like Loon uses on main mountain) so it will be interesting to see where the next $$ go into the system.

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[Jully]

14, 8 hell even 3 is too many, especially when your SR and your reputation has been built on great, reliable conditions because of your superior Snowmaking system. Not to mention they were supposed to be done with the plan to DOUBLE water push by now, but that all got delayed and now places like Snow have passed SR in terms of volume and others like Stowe are nearly on par if not slightly ahead. This is a long needed first step to gearing up the system. I believe a second feed line coming in on the west side from the river is still on deck to go to doubling water, which would put 16000+ gpm on the hill. I still believe to make use of that pump capacity, they will have to automate at least some of the system (either fully or semi-auto like Loon uses on main mountain) so it will be interesting to see where the next $$ go into the system.

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Honestly I think Stowe is decently ahead of SR in snowmaking these days. They're opening looong runs on multiple mountains before SR moves to 3 total peaks some years it feels like.

I'm really excited to see where SR goes with snowmaking improvements. The team there gets it and I think wants to be innovative and get back to excellent snowmaking.

 

[Jully]

Seven Bros was supposed to be replaced with a HSQ and the triple moved to East Basin. Obviously neither happened. May get replaced with a HSQ but I can't see a HSS there ever. Both the load and unload areas are tight (well, the load has some room but that whole area on weekends/peak days is already a cluster F) and the trails just don't need that volume deposited out there. The only place on Loon that could have handled a 6 in my opinion was Lincoln Express. I kind of doubt the Gondi gets changed out inside of a decade, they really need to complete South and get a real learning pod up and running. It's the one thing Loon has always severely lacked and South needs a real base. The tent lodge was fine for a few years but is long past being acceptable.

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South Peak is just sad at Loon these days. A lot of the Loon base facilities feel kind of tired in my opinion. I thought WV's lodge (objectively in horrible shape for years) wasn't that far below Loon's facilities. A new, substantive lodge at South Peak would really help alleviate the crowding there.

I also feel like Kanc could be a HS6.

 

[machski]

South Peak is just sad at Loon these days. A lot of the Loon base facilities feel kind of tired in my opinion. I thought WV's lodge (objectively in horrible shape for years) wasn't that far below Loon's facilities. A new, substantive lodge at South Peak would really help alleviate the crowding there.

I also feel like Kanc could be a HS6.

Kanc as a HSS isn't a bad idea, it has several runs right off it and allows direct feed to East Basin/North Peak. They could reuse the quad for 7Bros. Octagon lodge did get a nice new deck this year.

Waterville's lodge is getting a huge upgrade this year, should be pretty nice when fully open by Xmas.

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[Newpylong]

14, 8 hell even 3 is too many, especially when your SR and your reputation has been built on great, reliable conditions because of your superior Snowmaking system. Not to mention they were supposed to be done with the plan to DOUBLE water push by now, but that all got delayed and now places like Snow have passed SR in terms of volume and others like Stowe are nearly on par if not slightly ahead. This is a long needed first step to gearing up the system. I believe a second feed line coming in on the west side from the river is still on deck to go to doubling water, which would put 16000+ gpm on the hill. I still believe to make use of that pump capacity, they will have to automate at least some of the system (either fully or semi-auto like Loon uses on main mountain) so it will be interesting to see where the next $$ go into the system.

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The achilles heal with SR is the way their system was built. The layout is poor and it is very maintenance and labor intensive and they spend a tremendous amountof energy pumping water long distances with high head loss. A water source on the other side will help but then they will need to back out of the rigs on the east side that were in place to get water to the west.

That river line was swiss cheese. They went from 18" steel to 20" ductile iron, so they'll get less friction loss and it'll last forever.

 

[machski]

The achilles heal with SR is the way their system was built. The layout is poor and it is very maintenance and labor intensive and they spend a tremendous amountof energy pumping water long distances with high head loss. A water source on the other side will help but then they will need to back out of the rigs on the east side that were in place to get water to the west.

That river line was swiss cheese. They went from 18" steel to 20" ductile iron, so they'll get less friction loss and it'll last forever.

Well, yeah. They just kept stapling on more line expansion to the west. Aurora to Jordan, the plumbing is a mess. My hope is they look at all of it closely and rethink it before trying to tie in a west feed line.

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[machski]

I didn't see any snowmaking tests except Shawnee this month. Still time, but I thought both K and SR usually have a nice photoshoot.

Here you go, new feed line at SR complete.


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[machski]

It seems to me that they really need to install a trunk line, capable of their required needs, now and somewhat into the future and hook all the branches to that. A little bit of proper engineering. But that costs money.... And it's not splashy. How many people will say they had snow making before they spent all this money, I don't see any difference.

I mean, they can make the new line they just installed splashy, with some real good snow making this year, folks can and will appreciate that after last year. But how will they get the wow factor for a new trunk line to Jordan?

The river has never factored in labor costs, as far as I can tell, in the original building of the resort. It was, perhaps, my greatest frustration working there. Slowly, they are considering it. Putting in radiant heat in the low deck at Barker with a drain removed tons of labor required to get the snow out of there. The same at South Ridge. It just seems to me they will put off a replacement if the labor costs to patch and keep something running aren't "too high", whoever decides what that is.

Still, with all my complaining, I am pretty happy for the new water main from the pond and am looking forward to better things this season.

The wow factor for the Jordan line will be when they blow Barker to Jordan simultaneously and Jordan is open by first week of December along with all that usually is by then it will be like Snow's early season wow factor was last year with West lake coming online. They already had good Snowmaking but their huge increase in water push took it to a whole other level and was quite an obvious difference.

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[machski]

Agree with everything you listed and then some other moves they have made as well. Some moves make literally no sense, Loon could've just deep cleaned the gondi cabins and waited a few years until they go for a full replacement. Others, like you said just no forward thinking. Why go for a triple in 2018? I honestly think they might have gotten a deal on it because it was some left over stock or something, there just aren't many triples going in these days.

Boyne had just ordered and installed the same model Triple the year prior to Spruce at Big Sky to replace Challenger. The other issue with going to a quad was there was a ton of ledge they had to blast for the carpet loader vault at Spruce Base terminal. Upping it to a quad width vault would have required new blasting, raising the cost.

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[ThinkSnow]

On the Kmart website, apparently this is the Season of More. What exactly does this mean: [FONT=&quot] "....additional availability of intermediate trails"[/FONT]

 

[drjeff]

Attitash has pictures of their crew taking down the Top Notch Double on their FB page this morning. Their social media crew is semi dropping hints that it may be to help make space for a future HS lift installation to the summit.....

 

[deadheadskier]

I'm not sure it would make sense to run a summit HSQ up the old Hall line. Only way that makes sense is if they move the Yankee base to where the triple is and run it up that line. There wouldn't be enough space to put in a HSQ where the Hall double is/was adjacent to the Yankee base terminal. The liftline cluster would be a mess.

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[bdfreetuna]

All Killington's improvements are good news in my book. However this is a slight disappointment especially during mid-winter peak season it would be nice to expect all non-redundant lifts to operate on a daily basis. At least it will still be un-crowded over there on weekends, even with a new lift that pod just doesn't attract heavy traffic, I'm sure it will be uncrowded as it was when the old lift was running.

If Juggernaut is being retired it would be nice to see some tree lines cut to skier's right of Jug over the next period of time. That could make it a real sleeper pod.

Will the South Ridge Quad run every day?
We anticipate that the South Ridge Quad will operate most weekends and holiday days. We don’t anticipate running the lift during non-holiday midweek periods.

 

[skiur]

If you think the 6 pack wont be crowded on the weekend then I've got a bridge to sell you! Tourons always flock to the shiny new toys and Killington will be hyping the shit out of it. Fortunately, the crowds at the new 6 pack will ease congestion at other lifts.

 

[GregoryIsaacs]

If you think the 6 pack wont be crowded on the weekend then I've got a bridge to sell you! Tourons always flock to the shiny new toys and Killington will be hyping the shit out of it. Fortunately, the crowds at the new 6 pack will ease congestion at other lifts.

That's for sure the way it works at mt snow.... For a lift I seldom ride on weekends/holidays it was an amazing upgrade for the rest of the mountain's sake.

 

[machski]

If you think the 6 pack wont be crowded on the weekend then I've got a bridge to sell you! Tourons always flock to the shiny new toys and Killington will be hyping the shit out of it. Fortunately, the crowds at the new 6 pack will ease congestion at other lifts.

I believe he was referring to the South Ridge pod and quad, not the Snowdon 6.

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