Burton to Purchase Mad River?

[Tin Woodsman]

...It does seem like a boarder's jihad dream..., to control one of NewEngland skiing's shrines....;-), yet economics is economics, and nothin's sacred or forever in a materialistic society...such as ours.

Yes, economics are economics, but what proff do we have that any of the figures in this guy's post are true? I have little or no faith in those numbers. The Co-op has traditionally been quite conservative with its capital spending initiatives and overall budget. I don't believe anything about the scenario being painted by this guy. And then with the kicker being that Burton would be the buyer? That's comedy gold.

Did you guys know that gullible isn't a word in the dictionary?

 

[thetrailboss]

Trailboss, Im all for following forum protocol, but this question basically revolves around the issue your trying to edit out. The only reason people would really get pissed about a sale of MRG is because Burton, the name in snowboarding, would be the buyer and in turn allow snowboarders.

AdironRider:

We are very open to discussions in here and only ask that folks be civil. However, there are some issues that only inflame people despite our best efforts to keep it civil and the Snowboard Ban issue at MRG is one of them. During my time here, I've seen some friendships broken and controversy that makes others upset. None of the mods have the time and energy to "peacekeep" threads and topics that are going to inflame so many people. This is why politics was banned from the boards.

The mods take intervention seriously and we don't want to "overmoderate." Today was no different. I felt that the direction of this thread was going the wrong way. I have pointed you to one thread that is about the ban and you are welcome to discuss it there. However, because of the direction that this thread was turning and because of past experience, I felt that the best thing was to narrowly focus this thread on the original topic: the article/posting about MRG and Burton. You are right that the Ban is a closely related topic, but I think it is best that we keep a tight focus on discussing the article here in this thread.

After your post, there were two more that were beginning a conflict. I had to correct those two. I had the choice of leaving the posts and the conflict alone to simmer (and almost guaranteeing a lock by another mod), to lock the thread myself, or to intervene by editing out the parts of the postings that were going to start a :flame: war. As you can see, I chose the lesser of the evils presented.

My actions are not to be construed as taking one side or the other in the argument about the ban. I just am acting to keep things civil and the discussions on track.

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to PM me as some already have.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

AdironRider:

We are very open to discussions in here and only ask that folks be civil. However, there are some issues that only inflame people despite our best efforts to keep it civil and the Snowboard Ban issue at MRG is one of them. During my time here, I've seen some friendships broken and controversy that makes others upset. None of the mods have the time and energy to "peacekeep" threads and topics that are going to inflame so many people. This is why politics was banned from the boards.

The mods take intervention seriously and we don't want to "overmoderate." Today was no different. I felt that the direction of this thread was going the wrong way. I have pointed you to one thread that is about the ban and you are welcome to discuss it there. However, because of the direction that this thread was turning and because of past experience, I felt that the best thing was to narrowly focus this thread on the original topic: the article/posting about MRG and Burton. You are right that the Ban is a closely related topic, but I think it is best that we keep a tight focus on discussing the article here in this thread.

After your post, there were two more that were beginning a conflict. I had to correct those two. I had the choice of leaving the posts and the conflict alone to simmer (and almost guaranteeing a lock by another mod), to lock the thread myself, or to intervene by editing out the parts of the postings that were going to start a :flame: war. As you can see, I chose the lesser of the evils presented.

My actions are not to be construed as taking one side or the other in the argument about the ban. I just am acting to keep things civil and the discussions on track.

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to PM me as some already have.

TB -

I quoted a famous PT Barnum saying that there is a sucker born every minute. Someone may have reacted to that angrily, but that's a sad indictment of their knowledge of Americana more than anything. I certainly was not "beginning a conflict" by pointing out that this whole subject was quite clearly a practical joke.

 

[thetrailboss]

TB -

I quoted a famous PT Barnum saying that there is a sucker born every minute. Someone may have reacted to that angrily, but that's a sad indictment of their knowledge of Americana more than anything. I certainly was not "beginning a conflict" by pointing out that this whole subject was quite clearly a practical joke.

Unfortunately, things turned out different than you intended. And let's keep backchannel stuff there :wink:

 

[knuckledragger]

Based totaly on the principal that my money is not good there I would never ride there no matter who owns it.
This from an exburton employee who knows the real story not he myth.

 

[CordoroyJunkie]

This from an exburton employee who knows the real story not he myth.

care to elaborate on what the real story is (if you can of course) I'm sure everyone on here is interested!

 

[knuckledragger]

The myth is that Betsy was harassed by a couple of burton employees in Mahurons market. Becaues of the way she was aproched by these 2 individuals he told them if that no riders were welcome at mrg.

 

[riverc0il]

myth being the key word. this whole thread seems full of them. :roll:

 

[marcski]

myth being the key word. this whole thread seems full of them. :roll:

Seriously. That whole website http://powderjihad.wordpress.com/ seems a bit whacky. "resorts that practice discrimination"?

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Serious flaws

Duplicate, please delete or ignore

.

 

[David Metsky]

I seriously doubt the economic figures in the OP. They do not reflect the situation at MRG as I know it. The membership has been very conservative with money and planned the improvements carefully.. And, why would a snowboard manufacturer have any desire to buy a ski area, especially one with no snowmaking, little infrastructure, and a core user base that would abandon it if purchased?

The two main points of discussion don't make any sense. This is a (half) pipe dream that is pure Internet hooey. MRG doesn't need snowboarders to be successful so there is little incentive to allow them at this point. Nor is there any incentive to sell the mountain to someone with deeper pockets. Nor is there any incentive for a gear maker to own a ski area.

-dave-

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Serious flaws

There are a couple of very serious flaws to this "information":

Given that the Board has a “fiduciary responsibility” to maximize the returns to shareholders, the mountain’s board could be seriously considering his offer or face a shareholder lawsuit for breach of duties.

The coop is a not for profit. They have a responsibility to the shareholders to execute the bylaws which read:

Section 1.3 - Purpose. The purpose for which the Cooperative was formed is to preserve and protect the forests and mountain ecosystem of Stark Mountain in order to provide skiing and other recreational access and to maintain the unique character of the area for present and future generations. The Cooperative shall be operated exclusively on a cooperative and nonprofit basis for the primary and mutual benefit of its owners and other patrons.

While that includes keeping the coop financially sound, "maximizing the returns to shareholders", in a fiancial sense, is not in their agenda.

A second important fact that has been omitted is that shareholders are limited to owning 4 shares per person. That would make a takeover impossible. While it is possible that enough individuals could buy up shares ad force a vote on removing the snowboard restriction, am I alone in thinking that this is unlikely?

If there is anything that would precipitate a shareholder lawsuit, I think it would be the blatant violation of bylaws of allow an individual to purchase more than four shares.

 

[AdironRider]

Thats cool Trailboss, I hear ya. Seems unfortunate that people would get worked up enough to lose friendships. We all just want to enjoy the snow.


I really do believe that MRG might just be in dire need of financial assistance, for all the reasons people have mentioned above. MRG has no snowmaking which in turn leaves a short short season and a loss of skier visits. With no snowmaking the mtn is not a guaranteed alternative. People dont spend thousands and their one week of vacation time on a trip like that. Also families with just one snowboarder are going to make the trek elsewhere in Vt, with plenty of alternative very close.MRG also has a bit of a "cult" following, with even the lovers only going 3-4 times a season. Not exactly numbers that are going to pad the books. Not allowing snowboarding also eliminates any family with just a single snowboarder (not trying to ruffle feathers but its still an economic point) from visiting. Season pass sales are also probably not as strong with no guaranteed snow and a short season. These are all economic shortfalls that are pretty much exclusive to MRG, and the way most mtns can hardly stay open without the same challenges, its suprising this is the first youve heard of financial difficulty.

 

[Greg]

These are all economic shortfalls that are pretty much exclusive to MRG, and the way most mtns can hardly stay open without the same challenges, its suprising this is the first youve heard of financial difficulty.

Eric Friedman has been very up front with us in regards to MRG's financial situation. I do not believe they are in any trouble from a single poor season this year. Please check out the MRG's challenges for more detail on MRG's financial situation:

http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2004/response.htm?resort=madriver (Response #9)
http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2005/response.htm?resort=madriver (Response #5)
http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/challenge/2006/response.htm?resort=madriver (Response #10, #5)

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Thats cool Trailboss, I hear ya. Seems unfortunate that people would get worked up enough


I really do believe that MRG might just be in dire need of financial assistance, for all the reasons people have mentioned above. MRG has no snowmaking which in turn leaves a short short season and a loss of skier visits. With no snowmaking the mtn is not a guaranteed alternative. People dont spend thousands and their one week of vacation time on a trip like that. Also families with just one snowboarder are going to make the trek elsewhere in Vt, with plenty of alternative very close.MRG also has a bit of a "cult" following, with even the lovers only going 3-4 times a season. Not exactly numbers that are going to pad the books. Not allowing snowboarding also eliminates any family with just a single snowboarder (not trying to ruffle feathers but its still an economic point) from visiting. Season pass sales are also probably not as strong with no guaranteed snow and a short season. These are all economic shortfalls that are pretty much exclusive to MRG, and the way most mtns can hardly stay open without the same challenges, its suprising this is the first youve heard of financial difficulty.

Adiron -

This entire post is what weather geeks refer to as "wishcasting". You are interpreting an amalgam of internet rumors, third hand accounts, and pure speculation to form a conclusion which fits only your pre-conceived notions of the place, rather than the facts.

1) There is no evidence whatsoever that the Co-op is in financial difficulty. In fact, MRG is one of the few (only?) ski areas that consistently makes a profit from its skiing operations year after year.

2) Their lack of snowmaking is actually an asset. Do you realize how much it costs to make snow these days? It is probably the single largest expense line item after employee costs. It could be even greater than that, actually. Having no snowmaking enables MRG to keep their overhead low, so that lousy snow years don't impact them as badly as other resorts.

3) Ski areas don't make much money in the early season (Nov 1 to Dec 1) or the late season (after April 1). People simply aren't thinking about skiing at those times of the year.

4) MRG has one of the most loyal followings of any ski area in North America. Its skier visits don't fluctuate much below a certain level b/c these people come to ski there no matter what - it's a culture, not a choice. I'd bet that the core skiers and families don't just go 3-4 times per season. More like 10-15. Where did you get these numbers anyway? They seem just completely made up.

5) Because of its low overhead and lack of associated lodging, MRG doesn't need the destination family business to be successful. Sure, that helps sell a few more lift tickets during weekdays, but the low overhead means that isn't as critical anyway. And MRG's parking lot is almost always maxed out on weekends no matter what the weather.

In short, you've presented zero factual evidence that the Co-op is in financial difficulty and I would urge Eric and Co. to stay out of this discussion so as not to even dignify this silly rumor-mongering.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

The myth is that Betsy was harassed by a couple of burton employees in Mahurons market. Becaues of the way she was aproched by these 2 individuals he told them if that no riders were welcome at mrg.

How does it follow that b/c you used to work at a snowboard manufacturer, it is to be believed that you have the straight dope on this story? If I worked for a gun manufacturer, would that mean that I know who killed JFK?

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

AdironRider:

You're making an economic argument for the one ski area where such arguments are invalid. They're a Not-for-profit. The coop exists to provide it's members what they want. What the members consistently seem to want is an Old school, classic ski experience. Every "short fall" you point out is considered a plus by its members.

Examples:
Minimal snowmaking=natural snow, ability to preserve narrow, winding trails, reduced costs.
Low capacity lifts=lower skier density

MRG's shareholders vote with their cash, both with their share purchases and with their required minimum annual expeditures at the coop. They didn't buy shares because they wanted to make money, the bought shares to preserve the recreational experience that they love.

I happen to love MRG, the steeps, the trees, the narrow trails, the slow lifts, the low skier density and the whole non-comercial atmosphere. If I had the cash, I'd buy four shares in a heartbeat. To those who don;t like it, stay away. If you really don't like it, buy four shares and vote!

 

[SkiDog]

If I worked for a gun manufacturer, would that mean that I know who killed JFK?

Duh of course.......

M

 

[AdironRider]

I wasnt refering at all to making profit, did I ever say I was? Running a ski resort is not a cheap endeavor, regardless of making profit or not.

I stand by my points. They are all economic speculation as to why MRG might be having a tougher time meeting its financial needs. I never said they were fact, only speculation to stimulate discussion. Frankly noone else here has any knowledge based on fact to argue that they arent in financial difficulty either...

 

[JimG.]

This thread isn't fun anymore.

Even though the internet posting that spurred this discussion is probably untrue, could it hurt to discuss the potential outcome as if it were true? Why does everything have to be proven or disproven to the exclusion of theretical conversation?

Why is it that every time a snowboarder mentions MRG a flame war breaks out? The way folks react one would think they were terrorists bent on flying an explosive laden airplane into the single chairlift. Such defensiveness!

And I'm a skier who loves MRG just the way it is!

Jeez, some folks need to lighten up!