Changes to WV Green Peak

[xlr8r]

http://www.newenglandskiindustry.com/viewstory.php?storyid=196

Looks like Waterville is low on cash for their expansion. I think they would be better off moving the existing valley run quad over to green peak and move the world cup triple to valley run if they really don't have the money for a new quad. The general public will not want to ride an over 4,000' lift if it is slow to get to this new terrain.

What they really should do is buy a new quad for green peak, then replace both the high country and northside doubles with a single lift, which would be the relocated world cup triple. There never is much demand for the high country chair or northside, so replacing both with just a triple should be fine. But green peak will be mostly low intermediate terrain that the general skiing public loves, and Waterville is in short supply of, so I think that lift will need to be a detachable quad.

Considering Sunapee, and Ragged have built new detachable lifts this year, Waterville continues to fall behind the rest of the pack. Nothing has really changed there since the valley run quad was put in over 15 years ago. The place really has fallen from being probably the most successful NH ski resort in the 80s and early 90s. Attitash similarly has also fallen from its peak in the 90s partly due to their refusal to replace the summit triple with a detachable lift.

 

[deadheadskier]

I'd be surprised if the expansion happens at all under current ownership. Isn't WV reportedly for sale?

 

[joshua segal]

I am cringing at xlr8r's posting.

The cost of relocating a lift is well into 6 figures. I do agree with him that Waterville Valley has been supplanted by Loon as the premier area of the Old Ski 93 coalition. But Waterville's descent has been a long term pattern that predated the Sununu ownership group.

My understanding of Attitash: No one has ever made a profit on Attitash, so I am not sure what xlr8r meant by "falling from its peak in the 90s." I suspect that Peak Resorts got stuck with it because at the ASC fire sale, Peak wanted Mt. Snow, but the package was Attitash and Mt. Snow. Given Attitash's skier visit totals, it would be hard to justify Peak Resorts dumping 4 to 6 million into a new lift.

Most agree that Wildcat is their better area, and Peak is putting big bucks into Wildcat. But Wildcat has no lodging - Attitash has plenty. I think the jury is still out on Peak and its Wildcat/Attitash investment. A number of people have voiced concern that Peak Resorts has too much debt already. Hopefully, Peak Management has learned from ASC's mistakes and will resist expansion if it means taking on more debt.

 

[xlr8r]

I am cringing at xlr8r's posting.

The cost of relocating a lift is well into 6 figures. I do agree with him that Waterville Valley has been supplanted by Loon as the premier area of the Old Ski 93 coalition. But Waterville's descent has been a long term pattern that predated the Sununu ownership group.

My understanding of Attitash: No one has ever made a profit on Attitash, so I am not sure what xlr8r meant by "falling from its peak in the 90s." I suspect that Peak Resorts got stuck with it because at the ASC fire sale, Peak wanted Mt. Snow, but the package was Attitash and Mt. Snow. Given Attitash's skier visit totals, it would be hard to justify Peak Resorts dumping 4 to 6 million into a new lift.

Most agree that Wildcat is their better area, and Peak is putting big bucks into Wildcat. But Wildcat has no lodging - Attitash has plenty. I think the jury is still out on Peak and its Wildcat/Attitash investment. A number of people have voiced concern that Peak Resorts has too much debt already. Hopefully, Peak Management has learned from ASC's mistakes and will resist expansion if it means taking on more debt.

According to newenglandskihistory.com, Waterville peaked at 310,000 skier visits in 89/90, but now only gets roughly 160,000 on average, with a low of 131,000 in the 11/12 season. Attitash peaked at 233,000 skier visits in 97/98, but now also only gets around 160,000 on average with a low of 141,000 in the 10/11 season. Wildcat averages below 100,000 skier visits.

Taking a look at nearby resorts that have invested lots of money in improvements, Loon has peaked at 389,000 skier visits in the 10/11 season. Also Bretton Woods has peaked at 192,000 skier visits also in the 10/11 season. Sunapee peaked at 288,000 in the 10/11 season as well.

The green peak expansion needs to happen, but it needs to be done right. Otherwise it will just end up like what Spear Peak at Ragged has been for a number of years, avoided due to a very slow lift. If a quad is put on green peak, then the valley run quad becomes partially redundant as a lot of people will use green peak to ski the valley run trail. So it might make sense to move the triple to valley run.

 

[deadheadskier]

Right, but the cost of moving two lifts is tremendous; especially with one being a HSQ.

4800 feet isn't that long of a lift ride. If they were able to install a conveyor with the WC triple over there, they could get the ride down around 9 minutes. That's what it takes for a similar length conveyor lift at Shawnee Peak. Not too painful at all.

Like I said, I believe the place is for sale. So, if they go through with the Green Peak expansion at all, I would think it would be done on the cheap and let the next owner address upgrading the lift if it's a problem.

 

[joshua segal]

According to newenglandskihistory.com, Waterville peaked at 310,000 skier visits in 89/90, but now only gets roughly 160,000 on average, with a low of 131,000 in the 11/12 season. Attitash peaked at 233,000 skier visits in 97/98, but now also only gets around 160,000 on average with a low of 141,000 in the 10/11 season. Wildcat averages below 100,000 skier visits.

Taking a look at nearby resorts that have invested lots of money in improvements, Loon has peaked at 389,000 skier visits in the 10/11 season. Also Bretton Woods has peaked at 192,000 skier visits also in the 10/11 season. Sunapee peaked at 288,000 in the 10/11 season as well.

The green peak expansion needs to happen, but it needs to be done right. Otherwise it will just end up like what Spear Peak at Ragged has been for a number of years, avoided due to a very slow lift. If a quad is put on green peak, then the valley run quad becomes partially redundant as a lot of people will use green peak to ski the valley run trail. So it might make sense to move the triple to valley run.

I don't disagree with anything you quoted from newenglandhistory.com. What I am saying is that Attitash wasn't profitable at 233K skier visits and that was right after the Bear Peak expansion.

I also do agree that WV needs to do something to recapture their prominence. I don't think that relocating a lift is a cost effective way for them to move forward.

A lot of investment in the skiing business is funded by deep pockets and some by EB5 money. You cited Ragged (EB-5 now as far as I know). Most everyone thought that Ragged's HS-6 was the panacea for their problems. (BTW: Ragged came precipitously close to beating out Ascutney as the first NE area with and HS-detachable to become a NELSAP area in 1997.) In the last few years, the scuttlebutt has been that replacing Spear will be the panacea. I don't think so.

Until a lot more "on premises" lodging becomes available, Ragged is mostly a day-trip area, but a day trip area that pushes the day trip limits from most major population centers.

 

[DoublePlanker]

How can Tenney ever hope to be viable if Waterville can't make it? I guess just ego -driven owners think skiing is a good business or can overcome challenges of mother nature and market size.

 

[Abubob]

replace both the high country and northside doubles with a single lift

Wouldn't that be nice!

 

[joshua segal]

How can Tenney ever hope to be viable if Waterville can't make it? I guess just ego -driven owners think skiing is a good business or can overcome challenges of mother nature and market size.

Tenney and Waterville were never competitors. Tenney's competition was Ragged, Gunstock and some might argue for Sunapee, Whaleback, Pat's and Crotched.

 

[Higgl]

Waterville will never relocate the WC triple to northside... The whole reason they still bother to inspect the lift in the first place every season is to have it function as a wind backup where if the HSQ is down you do WC to northside. Also they run high country early season, which you could theoretically do from the mid station, but itd be an insane cost to relocate that lift to that side of the mountain for such little benefit.
Of course as has already been pointed out, the biggest issue is the cost... They don't have the funds to relocate Quadzilla and the WC triple. Nor buy a quad.
Personally I'm fine with the idea. It'll help them sell the area and get it back into the hands of someone who will be able to get the resort back on its feet again. Green peak I'm pretty sure has been launched to simply make the resort more attractive to buyers. Green peak plus the second expansion over there including the village gondola would completly change the nature of waterville, suddenly there would be a large amount of great beginner terrain right next to the village that would basically be on site lodging. That being said, the current ownership is not ever going to see that happen, they're trying to show a buyer that WV will be viable in the future.
The ownership really made their intentions clear when they fired their good groomers and snowmakers a few seasons ago. Save on the money, get Green Peak online and then get out of there as fast as possible.

On another note I think the Spear HSQ was stupid at Ragged. Don't me wrong I'm incredibly excited to be able to lap Showboat eighteen times an afternoon this season, which is arguably my favorite trail in all of southern to mid NH, but Ragged literally spent 5 million dollars to access three trails because most Ragged skiers don't use the Ravine. Holy crap that was dumb. You need real estate and more trail offerings, not a second 900' vertical lift accessing three trails...

 

[xwhaler]

Waterville is a strange area...its a massive peak with room to expand, fairly close proximity to the highway and a base village with lots of lodging---would think it would be popular.
But the terrain is largely boring and it skis a lot smaller than its vertical would suggest.
I can't help but think that WV is being largely supported by condo/time share owners who are tied to the mountain. I don't ever run across day skiers who seek out Waterville.
Seems its time has passed them by and unless/until they do something significant, their mediocre/meh status will prevail.

 

[Edd]

I was told this week that the village in Waterville was open container. Can anyone confirm that?

 

[Higgl]

Most day skiers who go to NH are intermediates I believe, at least the ones buying daily lift tickers (though I could be wrong on this one as its just a general observation I have), and so in that light Waterville sucks because they have almost no intermediate terrain... Oblivion and Northside kind of off the top, and then Valley Run and that is pretty much it... So why on earth would you want to go to WV if you're looking to ski blues and greens with the family when Loon is just as far away with a gondola and more intermediate terrain OR you have Gunstock, Ragged, and basically everywhere except Cannon and Wildcat in the entire state.

Waterville has some of the most devoted followers of probably anywhere in NH though, and the race program brings in fresh blood every year, and so the isn't in rough shape at all, no where near closing for sure, but some drastic changes and investment need to happen in order for the area to ever rival Loon again.

Loon's South Peak expansion really hurt Waterville because now Loon actually has some kind of expert offerings that wasn't Flume.

 

[deadheadskier]

That's funny. I largely view WV as a beginner to intermediate mountain. I think its major downfall is lack of advanced terrain. You've got True Grit and Lower Bobby's and that's really it.

An expansion to Tecumsah proper skiers left of high country would address that. The Green Peak terrain seems redundant with what they already have. I figured the only reason for it was eventually connecting the village.

Get some more advanced terrain and for the love of god raise the speed limit on the road in and you'd be onto something.

 

[ss20]

I think a lack of beginner terrain hurts as well. One green run from mid-mountain is not good when trying to attract families.

 

[skifree]

I was told this week that the village in Waterville was open container. Can anyone confirm that?

I have never had a problem walking around with a beverage.

 

[Higgl]

World Cup, Abandon, The Chute, and the regular blacks off Sunnyside are enough to keep most racers and advanced non glade loving people happy at least. Glades are certainly a different story though. Except for Wildcat, prior to Loon's South Peak expansion Waterville had by far the best reliable advanced offerings in New Hampshire. Attitash, Ragged, Gunstock, and Cannon never has enough terrain open until mid-February practically. I'd still pick WV over Cannon if I'm looking for that kind of terrain. Now Loon I consider basically equivalent to WV, maybe a bit better, but Waterville has been known as a pretty icy steep mountain with minimal intermediate to beginner terrain and a lack of trees and bumps to some extent. Not the best formula...

 

[deadheadskier]

Will just have to disagree. Those are all blue pitched trails and not all that entertaining for an advanced skier.

 

[Higgl]

That's fair to say for sure. I'm not saying its an incredibly advanced mountain, but compared to anything else near in NH except for South Peak Loon and Wildcat, it's the best out there. VT and Maine obviously have it crushed though. There's a reason BBTS is such a good race program. A Tecumsah expansion would certainly change everything including more expert offerings which I'm always game for, but the land is forest service land isn't it? I was always under the impression Waterville couldn't expand because of both a lack of ownership desire/ability and a lack of available land.

 

[skifree]

ciao/gema/true grit and lower bobbys are all fun upper level runs.
glades are few but just check out the ski patrol covered in snow grinning ear to ear . must be a few to be had.;-)