Enjoying Closed runs on days with big dumps.

[Puck it]

This year, it is has been a rarity at Cannon. For exmaplem,Vista has been roped for a couple of weeks now and justly so. Looking from the bottom, it is one massive ice flow. This is one way that we regularly duck at Cannon because of the wind loading.

 

[Razor]

We ski weekdays, and I get really pissed when I see runs closed that are perfectly fine because they are saving them for the weekends. A good example is the tree runs at Loon. We've skied them many times when they were closed, and had some great powder runs with no problems at all.

 

[thetrailboss]

We ski weekdays, and I get really pissed when I see runs closed that are perfectly fine because they are saving them for the weekends. A good example is the tree runs at Loon. We've skied them many times when they were closed, and had some great powder runs with no problems at all.

I think that this, as well as the practice of some ski areas closing terrain that would be open at others, raises good arguments that there is no real standard as to what should be closed and that the National Ski Patrol might want to address that concern if they already haven't. There's no real way to set a standard, but there is a problem when some folks see a rope and are conditioned to automatically think that there is no legitimate reason for it to be closed and poach it. Pretty much for me the rule has always been if there is a rope I don't go.

 

[HowieT2]

Your patroler friends are quite different than the ones I knew in Stowe or Ragged. Can't say I've gotten to know many at other hills.

Guess many of you folks are better citizens than I.

I'm with rivercoil on this one. I think it's fine to ski closed terrain provided you use good judgment and take personal responsibility for yourself. When I say good judgment, that means knowing the mountain and being cognizant of recent weather there. I'm not going to go to say Whiteface, where I've never been and start ducking ropes, but at say Stowe where I know practically ever square inch of the mountain? Yup, in a heartbeat.

It's interesting to hear all the Sugarbush folks being adamantly against ducking ropes. That attitude couldn't be more opposite at Stowe. While Stowe is far from as liberal as Sugarbush at opening up marginal terrain, to the regulars there, ropes are merely a suggestion. I can't tell you how many times I've run into Patrol (and not always ones I knew back in the day) on closed trails. Never once did I receive a warning or threat of a pulled pass. They essentially size you up and see if you have the chops and if you do, they'll say, "have fun, be safe and I never saw you here." Same goes for Ragged. I've actually been caught by patrol in the Ravine at Ragged and ended up riding the lift back up with them and skiing it with them again just to "make sure" it should stay "closed." :lol:

So, I guess I disagree with many of you on rope ducking beliefs. I've been skiing 30 years and only a handful of times out of hundreds and hundreds have I ended up regretting skiing closed terrain.

Hope you all don't look down upon the many, many AZers who were ducking ropes all weekend at Sugarloaf. :lol:

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to give the impression that I dont condone ducking closed trails. In fact, I did one this weekend. But I did so with the knowledge that there was a barren rockwall that I could safely navigate. while I got what I was looking for from that trail, it was rightfully closed and I wouldnt recommend it to others. My only point was that at SB I have never skied a closed trail that afterwards, I thought should have been open.

 

[MidnightJester]

Puts a smile on my face with how well this thread is going. What did I start, figuired I will get back into this debate. I am very much more on the skiing on closed runs if you chose too that not skiing them. We assume alot when we get on a lift. Just about sign away all injury and damage to equipment right's. So if I lose out even when mountains are at fault I will grab the snow whereever whenever. My risk, my gain. You only get good at less then optimal or bad conditions when you ride them. My smugglers ride would of been half as good if I stayed on only open areas. The way I look at it I would of cost myself to not of tried and missed out on all the riding. My weekend was a fun, wild ride.. Mostly intact. Three days behind me Fri"Sugarbush", Sat"Smugglers", Sun"Killington". Few bumps, few bruises, minor board damage, few lost items : (. All in All well worth the trip.

 

[MadMadWorld]

Puts a smile on my face with how well this thread is going. What did I start, figuired I will get back into this debate. I am very much more on the skiing on closed runs if you chose too that not skiing them. We assume alot when we get on a lift. Just about sign away all injury and damage to equipment right's. So if I lose out even when mountains are at fault I will grab the snow whereever whenever. My risk, my gain. You only get good at less then optimal or bad conditions when you ride them. My smugglers ride would of been half as good if I stayed on only open areas. The way I look at it I would of cost myself to not of tried and missed out on all the riding. My weekend was a fun, wild ride.. Mostly intact. Three days behind me Fri"Sugarbush", Sat"Smugglers", Sun"Killington". Few bumps, few bruises, minor board damage, few lost items : (. All in All well worth the trip.

That's taking it a bit to the extreme. There is a fine line and as DMC said, you are not just putting yourself at risk, you are also putting the patrollers that have to come in and rescue you at risk if you were to injure yourself. Saying you will "grab the snow wherever whenever" is just ignorance.

 

[MidnightJester]

Whereever Whenever is with a grain of salt. Risk is part of it and being on the fine line is where it is at for some. When doing some of the more risky terrain you minimize where you can. Ride with buddy system, start slow, preplan where you can. Taking in gladed terrain at most moutains that have them is extra risky to start. Most state they arent even patrolled and carry seen and unseen obstacles. If I only kept to safer things I would not be as good a boarder as I have become in the timespan I have been riding. To most I say stay on open terrain and avoid the trees for others its a little more murky and to sieze the day.

 

[thetrailboss]

That's taking it a bit to the extreme. There is a fine line and as DMC said, you are not just putting yourself at risk, you are also putting the patrollers that have to come in and rescue you at risk if you were to injure yourself. Saying you will "grab the snow wherever whenever" is just ignorance.

I agree and I also think that there are some folks who don't get the assumption of risk part and the "not suing" part when they get hurt. Just saying...

 

[snoseek]

I'm guilty both east and west.

Out here i often duck the shoulder on cal side and ski away from the ski area to go home. 2000plus vert of steep untracked to my doorstep. I'm careful and if shit goes wrong its on me, ski patrol aint coming.

In the east as a midweek skier i noticed areas would save stuff for the weekend crowd. There's my justification for that.

 

[andyzee]

No such thing as a closed trail. They are either open or "reserved".

Agreed, the rope at closed trails is just like a rope a some of your most exclusive night clubs. I've seen open trails in far worst condition than many closed ones.

 

[Huck_It_Baby]

I'm guilty both east and west.

2000plus vert of steep untracked to my doorstep.

That is so awesome

 

[bvibert]

I've done it and I'll do it again. It depends on who I'm with, the conditions, and my familiarity with the mountain and their opening/closing policy. Sometimes I just look for the trails marked with "Thin Cover" signs, as they're usually some of the best skiing on the mountain.

Like others have said, usually it's well worth the risk.

 

[dmc]

Like others have said, usually it's well worth the risk.

Just as long as your not risking endangering a ski patroller..

This is what should never happen....

 

[ALLSKIING]

Well that person was an idiot. I would never consider poaching in such conditions.

However, I did poach Misery Whip at Sugarloaf this weekend. Only rope I ducked this weekend. This was Friday after 4-5 inches of snow had fallen. Underneath was a 2 foot base of man made that was glazed over from the warm up. Now, I was the third person down and it was good. It wasn't very good for those behind me, but I wouldn't necessarily call it bad. I actually don't mind skiing something completely bullet proof from time to time. I enjoy the challenge and it keeps my skills sharp for when I hit nasty skied off patches on generally decent snow trails.

The trail shouldn't have been closed IMO. I don't think the dozen or so folks who skied it with me would say the trail should have been closed either because they had the skills to ski it. An intermediate level skier would've been screwed on it. Well, it's a Double Diamond trail, they shouldn't be on it even when the snow is good.

I stand by my stance that good judgment and personal responsibility is what matters when poaching something or even skiing open terrain. Ski Patrol shouldn't be making judgment calls based on factoring in situations where an unskilled skier or rider uses bad judgment and might get in over their head.

It was still good and I saw no reason for it to be closed...A few years back we ducked rumble at the bush and while not great it was fine and tons of fun. I have never ducked a rope and said this is dangerous...

 

[ALLSKIING]

Just as long as your not risking endangering a ski patroller..

This is what should never happen....

I totally agree with this....before ducking you should have an idea of the conditions of woods/closed trails before going in.

 

[gottabelight]

^ I agree with this as well, if you are a ducking a rope, you are essentially saying I am now on my own and do not expect to be rescued. If you are willing to take your safety into your own hands and take the liability of what may happen, then I see no problem with doing it. I sometimes do this when I am with my friends, and we are careful and always looking out for each other. We don't expect anyone to come get us when we go to places like this.

 

[riverc0il]

^ I agree with this as well, if you are a ducking a rope, you are essentially saying I am now on my own and do not expect to be rescued. If you are willing to take your safety into your own hands and take the liability of what may happen, then I see no problem with doing it. I sometimes do this when I am with my friends, and we are careful and always looking out for each other. We don't expect anyone to come get us when we go to places like this.

More justifications. C'mon guys, just say you are breaking the rules and you don't care. It is okay to admit to having a sociopathic side. We all do in some small ways.

The problem with trying to legitimize from the perspective of "I assume the risks, I don't expect a rescue, it is like BC, etc." is that it is decidedly NOT like BC and patrol WILL come rescue your ass if they find out that you are hurt in bounds on a closed trail. And they may need to ruin their skis that they would rather not ruin, they may need to push beyond what their ability level may be at, and they may be performing a rescue with a sled down a run they would never go down unless they had to make a rescue. Actions have consequences. If we break the rules, the only thing we can do is do so intelligently and mitigate risk factors that could have negative outcomes and dial back the skiing to a slightly more conservative level than normal.

Two seasons ago, Cannon had a closed trail death:
http://www.thesnowway.com/2010/12/22/reflections-on-recent-deaths-at-cannon

But people die on open groomed trails far more often than any other non-avalanche prone area, so that probably doesn't say much about the risk.

 

[steamboat1]

Well I ducked a rope today at Stratton. Drove up early this morning from NYC. First run up on American Express I go to traverse over to the Ursa chair. I usually like taking the lower traverse by the fixed grip chair. Got there & they had it roped off & I wasn't climbing back up to the upper traverse or skiing back down to the bottom to start over. Looked down the trail & it looked fine, plenty of snow & looked groomed. It's only a straight run out over to Ursa but you need to gain speed to make it without having to walk. Pointed them straight & went for the chair. It happened so fast I'm not even sure what happened myself but I hit some kind of compression & next thing I know is both skis popped off & I'm flying forward at a fairly high speed & did a face plant, got cut up & little & was bleeding which I didn't realize till I got down. Got up & my one leg wasn't feeling to good. I was able to gather my stuff which was all over. One ski & pole were just off the trail ready to go down into a stream but I managed to get them.Then I skied down to the bottom tentatively with no problems but still felt something wasn't right with my one leg. Took off my ski's to go in the lodge to clean my goggles which were filled with snow & I could hardly walk with a lot of pain. This was supposed to be the start of 4 days in a row skiing around VT.. Realized that no way was I going to be able to ski the rest of the week so I hoppled painfully to my car & drove back to NYC. Amazing I was able to drive because it was my right leg that I hurt. Not much of a problem most of the way because it was cruise control for most of the trip. Had some problems braking with stop & go traffic in the city but I made it home. Anyway my angle is swollen like a balloon, shin doesn't feel to Kosher & I think I tweeked my knee. See how I feel in the morning otherwise it's a trip to the ER. Still can barely walk with a lot of pain. Advil's helping with the pain but I might not be able to sleep tonight. Hope I'm not finished for the season.

Guess I found out why the trail was closed.

 

[Edd]

Yikes Steamboat. That blows. Heal quick, hopefully.

 

[ALLSKIING]

Well I ducked a rope today at Stratton. Drove up early this morning from NYC. First run up on American Express I go to traverse over to the Ursa chair. I usually like taking the lower traverse by the fixed grip chair. Got there & they had it roped off & I wasn't climbing back up to the upper traverse or skiing back down to the bottom to start over. Looked down the trail & it looked fine, plenty of snow & looked groomed. It's only a straight run out over to Ursa but you need to gain speed to make it without having to walk. Pointed them straight & went for the chair. It happened so fast I'm not even sure what happened myself but I hit some kind of compression & next thing I know is both skis popped off & I'm flying forward at a fairly high speed & did a face plant, got cut up & little & was bleeding which I didn't realize till I got down. Got up & my one leg wasn't feeling to good. I was able to gather my stuff which was all over. One ski & pole were just off the trail ready to go down into a stream but I managed to get them.Then I skied down to the bottom tentatively with no problems but still felt something wasn't right with my one leg. Took off my ski's to go in the lodge to clean my goggles which were filled with snow & I could hardly walk with a lot of pain. This was supposed to be the start of 4 days in a row skiing around VT.. Realized that no way was I going to be able to ski the rest of the week so I hoppled painfully to my car & drove back to NYC. Amazing I was able to drive because it was my right leg that I hurt. Not much of a problem most of the way because it was cruise control for most of the trip. Had some problems braking with stop & go traffic in the city but I made it home. Anyway my angle is swollen like a balloon, shin doesn't feel to Kosher & I think I tweeked my knee. See how I feel in the morning otherwise it's a trip to the ER. Still can barely walk with a lot of pain. Advil's helping with the pain but I might not be able to sleep tonight. Hope I'm not finished for the season.

Guess I found out why the trail was closed.

Oh man, Hope it feels better in the morning. Tough way to start a 4 day trip.