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Fly vs Drive: Break even point

shwilly

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For the foreseeable future our rare trips out West will be flying.

I have a retirement fantasy of winterizing a small camper and spending all winter roaming around the Rockies and Sierras, wherever is good.
 

skiur

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2015 Subaru Recommended with Synthetic is 5K and gas is premium for my car. Straight out of manual. On long trips I change it before going out and when I get back. The planet will never know. My cars last longer than most because of it. Sorry that is what I do.

Subaru makes money on oil changes too! :beer:
 

abc

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Although flight prices have gone through the roof.
Check again. Flight cost plummeted due to coronavirus scare.

Denver & Vancouver $300 for tomorrow, multiple airlines. Haven’t checked other destinations. I wouldn’t be surprised they’ll be reasonable too.
 

AdironRider

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Driving out West with anything less than a 3 week timeframe is a waste of time and resources. That is at least a week of just grinding miles in a car.

Annnnnd everything is much further away once you get here so it would be even a larger waste of time to try and move around a bunch if you did try and squeak in a trip (as in why you would drive in the first place). Front Range to Jackson is a minimum 8 hours. SLC to Tahoe like 7 or something. Jackson to Montana is 3+. SLC to Jackson is 4.5. All those drive times are in summer too. Even 15 years later the sheer scale of distance still blows me away after growing up in the NE where you can be like 7 states away in 8 hours, vs it takes longer than that just to cross Nebraska.
 

abc

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Denver is always lower than utah..
Cant wait to get on a flying virus tube saturday
I wouldn’t worry about the virus tube part too much. I flew home from Vancouver with 100 or so of Chinese from Hong Kong. I’m well past the incubation period now. :)

Ok, I don’t want to jinx it...

But yesterday I sat across from the aisle from a guy who’s coughing his lung out! ( I changed seat after his second or third bout of coughing) So your concern is probably not needed.
 

BenedictGomez

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Driving out west? It makes no sense unless you dont have the financial means.

I know some Vermonters who drove from N.VT to Vail, 4 years in a row. Sounds insane, but for a family of 4 with limited financial means, they did it to save $$$$, which I get.
 

BenedictGomez

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Any car built since 2000 can easily go 5000 miles between changes (especially if its all highway miles like a trip out west is) and upwards of 10000 with synthetic.

You're right about the 3,000 miles on standard oil being unnecessarily low, but if you're going 10,000 miles between all your changes on synthetic, you're slowly killing your car.
 

bdfreetuna

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Even with conventional oil, changing your oil every 3000 miles is a waste of money, and bad for the planet. Any car built since 2000 can easily go 5000 miles between changes (especially if its all highway miles like a trip out west is) and upwards of 10000 with synthetic. The 3000 mile oil change was brought to you by jiffylube.

Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..

2015 Subaru Recommended with Synthetic is 5K and gas is premium for my car. Straight out of manual. On long trips I change it before going out and when I get back. The planet will never know. My cars last longer than most because of it. Sorry that is what I do.

Yup your engine is basically same as in my 08 Legacy GT minus the turbo (unless you are 3.6R which is fundamentally similar anyway). Subaru says 3,750 mile OCI on my car. I usually aim for 3,000 since that's the number most Subie enthusiasts stick with, and my car is pretty high miles with bolt ons/tune.

My wife's Rav4 I use cheaper synthetic and do 5,000 mile OCI. That's the sweet spot for most vehicles.
 

Hawk

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Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..



Yup your engine is basically same as in my 08 Legacy GT minus the turbo (unless you are 3.6R which is fundamentally similar anyway). Subaru says 3,750 mile OCI on my car. I usually aim for 3000 since that's the number most Subie enthusiasts stick with.

The other thing that he is not considering is that the highway miles that manufactures consider normal are at 65-70 mph for 2 to 3 hours at a shot. Sure if that is what you are doing then sure your oil will not break down. Heading west there are large stretches that you can drive 80-90 ever 100mph easily. You will also be running the car at those speeds for much more extended periods of time. What do you think that will do to the make up of the oil? No I will change my oil on trips long before the 10,000 or ever 5,000.
 

AdironRider

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Synthetic oil shears too just not as quickly. The 10,000 mile oil change interval = brought to you by motor oil manufacturers trying to outdo each other. Pure marketing. Maybe you can get away with OCI like that in a 90's Toyota or Honda. I hope you check your oil levels too..



Yup your engine is basically same as in my 08 Legacy GT minus the turbo (unless you are 3.6R which is fundamentally similar anyway). Subaru says 3,750 mile OCI on my car. I usually aim for 3,000 since that's the number most Subie enthusiasts stick with, and my car is pretty high miles with bolt ons/tune.

My wife's Rav4 I use cheaper synthetic and do 5,000 mile OCI. That's the sweet spot for most vehicles.

Toyota only does oil changes every 10k on the Toyota care plan on my 18 Tundra, and before that my 12 FJ Cruiser. They check it every 5k, but only replace on 10k intervals.

Pg 37 here straight from the owners manual:

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/omms-s/T-MMS-19Tundra/pdf/T-MMS-19Tundra.pdf
 

NY DirtBag

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For the foreseeable future our rare trips out West will be flying.

I have a retirement fantasy of winterizing a small camper and spending all winter roaming around the Rockies and Sierras, wherever is good.

Isn't that everyones fantasy?

I'm planning to spend at least 5 early retirement years doing something similiar in the earth roamer (that my future self will have enough $ to buy)
 

bdfreetuna

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The other thing that he is not considering is that the highway miles that manufactures consider normal are at 65-70 mph for 2 to 3 hours at a shot. Sure if that is what you are doing then sure your oil will not break down. Heading west there are large stretches that you can drive 80-90 ever 100mph easily. You will also be running the car at those speeds for much more extended periods of time. What do you think that will do to the make up of the oil? No I will change my oil on trips long before the 10,000 or ever 5,000.

I agree although it depends on the vehicle. My car hums along at 3,100 RPM @ 76mph (usual cruising speed to not get pulled over). 5 speed manual. My wife has a 5+OD auto in the Rav, it settles in around 2,200 RPM to go the same speed on the highway.

Toyota only does oil changes every 10k on the Toyota care plan on my 18 Tundra, and before that my 12 FJ Cruiser. They check it every 5k, but only replace on 10k intervals.

Pg 37 here straight from the owners manual:

https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/omms-s/T-MMS-19Tundra/pdf/T-MMS-19Tundra.pdf

I'm not going to read the Toyota manual but as a used car buyer (I like value and knowing which cars hold up before I buy them -- also not swimming in money), the idea of having a stealership change my oil -- with oil I don't choose myself and at intervals I have no control over -- total bullshit situation.

My parents do OK financially for example -- one has a BMW the other has a Jaguar. My Dad is like "they're only changing my oil every 7500 miles". If I was in that position I'd change the oil myself halfway in between. For a car that expensive you want to stretch out oil?

I'm not sure everyone understand the physical properties of oil that change over the duration of it's use. Do you want fresh oil with the additives doing their job, or do you want sheared oil that still lubricates (not as well) but with the additives used up and now the addition of whatever various metal particulates have been introduced due to wear/use on the motor?

I'll take the fresh oil. My car absolutely demands it, after 3k miles I can feel a difference in smoothness. Maybe some cars are tuned so you don't notice it, but don't you notice how buttery your car is after a fresh oil change? That's what you should be aiming for all the time.

UNLESS -- you don't care about keeping the car long term and going high miles. Most people who buy these expensive new cars will sell them once the warranty is up anyway, leaving the used car buyer burned by their lack of true maintenance. I look at a used car's CarFax and see they only followed the dealership maintenance with OCI every 7,000-10,000 miles. Oh, hell no! I'll buy from someone who actively knows about their vehicle every time, unless it's such low mileage that it doesn't matter as much.
 

skiur

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Do what you like, it doesnt matter to me, but what started this convo was the 3000 mile OCI, and changing your oil every 3000 miles is a waste of money and oil.
 

deadheadskier

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Since at least 2005 or so, I've always just done 5k for oil and get my tires rotated at the same time. Keeps it simple. Knock on wood, but haven't had issues with vehicle longevity or short tread life during that time frame.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app
 

bdfreetuna

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Do what you like, it doesnt matter to me, but what started this convo was the 3000 mile OCI, and changing your oil every 3000 miles is a waste of money and oil.

If you read my explanation and still don't realize how that statement is generally wrong and especially dependent on the vehicle, I can't help you.

I guess if you consider "wasting oil" an actual problem (as if a few pints extra every year compares to gasoline intake and differences across even similar vehicles anyway), you might be convinced to destroy your car intentionally.

So... you do what you like including 10,000 OCIs if that's what floats your boat! Feel free to wash your car with a brillo pad and clean the ice off the windshield with a baseball bat while you're at it ;)
 

Ski2LiveLive2Ski

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My decision point is usually based on whether or not driving would take more than 1 day and require a hotel
 

AdironRider

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I agree although it depends on the vehicle. My car hums along at 3,100 RPM @ 76mph (usual cruising speed to not get pulled over). 5 speed manual. My wife has a 5+OD auto in the Rav, it settles in around 2,200 RPM to go the same speed on the highway.



I'm not going to read the Toyota manual but as a used car buyer (I like value and knowing which cars hold up before I buy them -- also not swimming in money), the idea of having a stealership change my oil -- with oil I don't choose myself and at intervals I have no control over -- total bullshit situation.

My parents do OK financially for example -- one has a BMW the other has a Jaguar. My Dad is like "they're only changing my oil every 7500 miles". If I was in that position I'd change the oil myself halfway in between. For a car that expensive you want to stretch out oil?

I'm not sure everyone understand the physical properties of oil that change over the duration of it's use. Do you want fresh oil with the additives doing their job, or do you want sheared oil that still lubricates (not as well) but with the additives used up and now the addition of whatever various metal particulates have been introduced due to wear/use on the motor?

I'll take the fresh oil. My car absolutely demands it, after 3k miles I can feel a difference in smoothness. Maybe some cars are tuned so you don't notice it, but don't you notice how buttery your car is after a fresh oil change? That's what you should be aiming for all the time.

UNLESS -- you don't care about keeping the car long term and going high miles. Most people who buy these expensive new cars will sell them once the warranty is up anyway, leaving the used car buyer burned by their lack of true maintenance. I look at a used car's CarFax and see they only followed the dealership maintenance with OCI every 7,000-10,000 miles. Oh, hell no! I'll buy from someone who actively knows about their vehicle every time, unless it's such low mileage that it doesn't matter as much.

I'm just going to say that you are saying, Toyota, as a company, is inherently wrong and the factory maintenance schedule is incorrect.

Sorry champ, but they know more than you on this one.
 

bdfreetuna

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I'm just going to say that you are saying, Toyota, as a company, is inherently wrong and the factory maintenance schedule is incorrect.

Sorry champ, but they know more than you on this one.

Correct on first point, incorrect on 2nd.

In the 2000s Toyota had to bump up their OCI on various models due to engines getting sludged up and reducing engine life. Oil blowby and clogging PCV (valves) causing sludge. Oil loses it's viscous properties after time, and it's a gradual process not all of a sudden at 6,000 miles it goes from perfect to bad.

In 2004 Toyota bumped up recommended OCI on 97-02 models from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles. This is with synthetic that they were recommending in these vehicles.

Subaru endured a similar fiasco when originally recommending 7,500 mile OCI on WRX, STi, Legacy GT and Forester XT before changing it to 3,750 (HALF) when realizing their engines were failing prematurely, and only because of the absurd recommendation.

Can you tell me what's so much more advanced about oil and Toyota engines now compared to 10-15 years ago? Because I can, and most of the updates such as tighter tolerances and variable valve timing, higher compression actually require fresher/better oil than the old Corollas and Lexus ES could survive on.
 
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skiur

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If you read my explanation and still don't realize how that statement is generally wrong and especially dependent on the vehicle, I can't help you.

I guess if you consider "wasting oil" an actual problem (as if a few pints extra every year compares to gasoline intake and differences across even similar vehicles anyway), you might be convinced to destroy your car intentionally.

So... you do what you like including 10,000 OCIs if that's what floats your boat! Feel free to wash your car with a brillo pad and clean the ice off the windshield with a baseball bat while you're at it ;)

Whatever bro, we know you cant ever be wrong about anything so I wont argue with you, to each there own.
 
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