Heartiage club looking for employss

[djd66]

So someone that earns 5+ mill a year dishes out over a third of their income to the tax man? Doubt that.

my point is that while most tax money may come from the wealthy they don’t pay an equal share as working people. They get the breaks while people living check to check get squeezed. That’s not right and people are fed up.

Actually if you live in a state like California, its more than 1/3. Feds get 37% and the state gets 12%. And the new tax code, you can’t deduct the 12% you pay the state after the first $10k.

 

[raisingarizona]

So to summarize...ski industry pays like crap and you can apply your skills outside of the ski industry and make more money.

This is earth-shattering news people. Where's CNN?

Huge oversimplification.

the ski industry and resort towns need workers but now can’t find them because there’s no place to live.

you live in a city or suburbs, spent your life getting a career and lack any form of empathy now because of your sacrifices. You feel resentment towards those that desire a different life style and live to enjoy themselves. Got it.

 

[mister moose]

the ski industry and resort towns need workers but now can’t find them because there’s no place to live.

you live in a city or suburbs, spent your life getting a career and lack any form of empathy now because of your sacrifices. You feel resentment towards those that desire a different life style and live to enjoy themselves. Got it.

It's always been like this. For decades and decades. Sure, the dynamics move a little with economic cycles, energy prices, etc, but overall ski industry work at mountain resorts has ALWAYS been find housing and you have your choice of a dozen jobs, or more. Ski shops, bars, restaurants, hotels, and the resort itself are all begging for staff. And somehow, they find it. The ski bums share bedrooms, or drive from farther from the resort, or whatever it takes. Housing is a struggle at resorts, and it's been that way since ... they built the resort. The short time I did it, I refinished cabinets in a condo in exchange for rent. I got roommates, I found a house to rent one town away except I had to bunk with friends on holidays when the owners came up. I worked 2 jobs . Easy? No. Fun? Yes.

It's not resentment, it's reality. And it's nothing new.

 

[deadheadskier]

It's always been like this. For decades and decades. Sure, the dynamics move a little with economic cycles, energy prices, etc, but overall ski industry work at mountain resorts has ALWAYS been find housing and you have your choice of a dozen jobs, or more. Ski shops, bars, restaurants, hotels, and the resort itself are all begging for staff. And somehow, they find it. The ski bums share bedrooms, or drive from farther from the resort, or whatever it takes. Housing is a struggle at resorts, and it's been that way since ... they built the resort. The short time I did it, I refinished cabinets in a condo in exchange for rent. I got roommates, I found a house to rent one town away except I had to bunk with friends on holidays when the owners came up. I worked 2 jobs . Easy? No. Fun? Yes.

It's not resentment, it's reality. And it's nothing new.

I don't disagree that it's nothing new, but it has worsened considerably in the past 25 years in vacation destinations (not just ski areas). So, folks are talking about getting creative to improve things for both the workers and businesses.

I did two ski bum tours in Stowe in the mid 90s. Even back then Stowe was probably the most expensive ski town in the East. Both times five friends and I rented a three bedroom house for $1200/month and shared bedrooms. Also worked two jobs just like you. That was pretty reasonable for the time. You could also find starter homes in town that middle management resort workers could afford.

I left New England after graduating college in 2001 and came back in 2005 to Stowe and Burlington. The change in demographics in the town was startling. 9/11 changed things dramatically. All of sudden seemingly half the full time residents in town were Wall Street executives driving Range Rovers having pushed the local Subaru crowd to Waterbury or Morrisville. That same house I had rented less than ten years prior had doubled in rent.

Further changes from "back in the day" have come with the rise of VRBO investors buying up more property and most recently a pandemic further bringing in people from cities to WFH and drive up the price.

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but your take seems to be "It is what it is."

I don't think it's sustainable without a serious increase in seasonal workforce housing and perhaps even some income restricted permanent housing options.

 

[ss20]

Huge oversimplification.

the ski industry and resort towns need workers but now can’t find them because there’s no place to live.

you live in a city or suburbs, spent your life getting a career and lack any form of empathy now because of your sacrifices. You feel resentment towards those that desire a different life style and live to enjoy themselves. Got it.

Actually after working part-time at the local bump for 7 years I'm moving west to teach skiing full-time for a couple years because I did the thing I highlighted in red.

 

[dblskifanatic]

So someone that earns 5+ mill a year dishes out over a third of their income to the tax man? Doubt that.

my point is that while most tax money may come from the wealthy they don’t pay an equal share as working people. They get the breaks while people living check to check get squeezed. That’s not right and people are fed up.

Effective tax rates

Effective tax rates – calculated as the total income tax owed divided by adjusted gross income – also rise with income. On average, taxpayers making less than $30,000 paid an effective rate of 4.9%, compared with 9.2% for those making between $50,000 and under $100,000 and 27.5% for those with incomes of $2 million or more.

But the system starts to lose its progressivity at the very highest levels: the effective rate peaked at 29.3% for taxpayers in the $2 million-to-under-$5 million group, then fell to 28.8% for the $5 million-to-under-$10 million group and 25.9% for those making $10 million or more.

The table below is for 2015 but the break down is probably similar

 

[Domeskier]

Actually if you live in a state like California, its more than 1/3. Feds get 37% and the state gets 12%. And the new tax code, you can’t deduct the 12% you pay the state after the first $10k.

Those are the top marginal rates, which only kick in on income over $500k. The blended rates for the people RA is talking about are much lower. If they have kids and qualify for the earned income tax credit or other refundable credits, they are likely getting refunds that significantly exceed the taxes withheld from their paychecks. Federal and state income taxes are progressive (i.e., they increase as income increases). It's things like sales, gas, and employment taxes (where everyone pays the same rate) that disproportionately burden people with lower incomes.

 

[djd66]

Those are the top marginal rates, which only kick in on income over $500k. The blended rates for the people RA is talking about are much lower.

RA's example was a guy that makes $5mm/yr. Unless it is made in capital gains, that guy is paying 37% + what ever your state income tax is. The funny thing is, in communist China, income tax is 15%

 

[Domeskier]

RA's example was a guy that makes $5mm/yr. Unless it is made in capital gains, that guy is paying 37% + what ever your state income tax is. The funny thing is, in communist China, income tax is 15%

Yeah, I read your post too quickly. I thought you were supporting RA's point that the working poor are paying a third or more of their income in taxes (which is nowhere close to correct).

 

[mister moose]

I don't disagree that it's nothing new, but it has worsened considerably in the past 25 years in vacation destinations (not just ski areas). So, folks are talking about getting creative to improve things for both the workers and businesses.

I did two ski bum tours in Stowe in the mid 90s. Even back then Stowe was probably the most expensive ski town in the East. Both times five friends and I rented a three bedroom house for $1200/month and shared bedrooms. Also worked two jobs just like you. That was pretty reasonable for the time. You could also find starter homes in town that middle management resort workers could afford.

I left New England after graduating college in 2001 and came back in 2005 to Stowe and Burlington. The change in demographics in the town was startling. 9/11 changed things dramatically. All of sudden seemingly half the full time residents in town were Wall Street executives driving Range Rovers having pushed the local Subaru crowd to Waterbury or Morrisville. That same house I had rented less than ten years prior had doubled in rent.

Further changes from "back in the day" have come with the rise of VRBO investors buying up more property and most recently a pandemic further bringing in people from cities to WFH and drive up the price.

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but your take seems to be "It is what it is."

I don't think it's sustainable without a serious increase in seasonal workforce housing and perhaps even some income restricted permanent housing options.

Yes, the changes you enumerate did change where you (royal you) could afford a house, but the dynamic still remains pretty much the same. I remember when all the workers in Aspen lived in Basalt, now Basalt is completely unaffordable. Does Aspen still hire people to run their lifts and wash their restaurant dishes? I think so. Meals are being served right now in Aspen. Instead of staying in Breck or Blue River, now it includes Alma. Instead of Frisco, you might be in Silverthorne. What has changed is the commute is longer. Vermont is no different, and is vastly less the playground of the truly wealthy, so we have less of the commute here, closer in is more affordable. Right down the street from my ski house is a duplex rental that always has bartenders and waitstaff in it. They make it work, and it's new faces every year. This isn't 3 towns out in Rutland either, it's in the basin.

There's another dynamic I see in play, and it too has been going on since snowmaking was invented. New seasonal ski bum type employees arrive and find no easy housing. If you roll into town in November thinking you'll find a place and get a job, good luck. That doesn't mean there isn't any affordable housing, it means it's already snapped up. Your first year you likely will end up on someone's couch or 3 towns out. Once you've spent a month in town and meet people, you hear of openings and opportunities. You go in with a few friends and rent a place closer in the next season.

One thing that's changed are the J1 work visa types. They arrive with no contacts in the beginning of high season and no place to stay. Part of their package now frequently is some kind of corporate owned housing. But the US ski bum is still in the "get a place and you have a job" category.

I think all ski areas have seen a growth in real estate prices. Will the latest COVID surge stay or go back to prior levels? Tough to say, but I do know how that will affect the newly arrived ski bum worker - they'll have a longer commute. I'm not as familiar with Stowe, but my money is on workers commuting from farther where its cheaper, not 'seasonal workforce housing' in close. Only when the commute is so long as to threaten the resort's ability to open on time due to traffic and weather delays will they invest in employee housing. Killington sure isn't there yet, in fact they run a frequent bus up from Rutland. And when the weather is bad, sometimes they open late.

And it always is "it is what it is".

 

[deadheadskier]

Yes, the changes you enumerate did change where you (royal you) could afford a house, but the dynamic still remains pretty much the same. I remember when all the workers in Aspen lived in Basalt, now Basalt is completely unaffordable. Does Aspen still hire people to run their lifts and wash their restaurant dishes? I think so. Meals are being served right now in Aspen. Instead of staying in Breck or Blue River, now it includes Alma. Instead of Frisco, you might be in Silverthorne. What has changed is the commute is longer. Vermont is no different, and is vastly less the playground of the truly wealthy, so we have less of the commute here, closer in is more affordable. Right down the street from my ski house is a duplex rental that always has bartenders and waitstaff in it. They make it work, and it's new faces every year. This isn't 3 towns out in Rutland either, it's in the basin.

There's another dynamic I see in play, and it too has been going on since snowmaking was invented. New seasonal ski bum type employees arrive and find no easy housing. If you roll into town in November thinking you'll find a place and get a job, good luck. That doesn't mean there isn't any affordable housing, it means it's already snapped up. Your first year you likely will end up on someone's couch or 3 towns out. Once you've spent a month in town and meet people, you hear of openings and opportunities. You go in with a few friends and rent a place closer in the next season.

One thing that's changed are the J1 work visa types. They arrive with no contacts in the beginning of high season and no place to stay. Part of their package now frequently is some kind of corporate owned housing. But the US ski bum is still in the "get a place and you have a job" category.

I think all ski areas have seen a growth in real estate prices. Will the latest COVID surge stay or go back to prior levels? Tough to say, but I do know how that will affect the newly arrived ski bum worker - they'll have a longer commute. I'm not as familiar with Stowe, but my money is on workers commuting from farther where its cheaper, not 'seasonal workforce housing' in close. Only when the commute is so long as to threaten the resort's ability to open on time due to traffic and weather delays will they invest in employee housing. Killington sure isn't there yet, in fact they run a frequent bus up from Rutland. And when the weather is bad, sometimes they open late.

And it always is "it is what it is".

A very big part of being a ski bum life aside from the skiing is the party scene. Certainly was for me when I did it. Was it not for you? It was like 60/40 skiing to partying ratio of why I loved it

Long commutes to work and entertainment for low wages is a MASSIVE turn off. You seem kinda flippant about these longer commutes being no big deal.

I don't think I would have chosen to be a "Stowe" ski bum back then if it meant I really was a "Wolcott" ski bum who traveled 35 minutes to work, ski and party in Stowe.

That's precisely why the ski bum as we have known it is an endangered species. They look at the reality of things and say screw it, concrete jungle and weekend warrior life for me. Especially with the dirt cheap season passes which would be a laughable perk in today's dollars. And it's also precisely why ski resorts need to turn to J1s and local housing more and more. The two are related.

To be certain there will always be the year round grinder ski bums who won't mind the long commutes as long as they are in the mountains and not the city. I think those are the ski bums you speak of.

But young 20 somethings like I was, willing to share a 8 x 10 shoebox bedroom, work one job for a pass at the mountain, second for beer and weed money, split in the spring and do the same thing at the beach for the summer? That's a lifestyle I had that's on life support these days.

Is what it is

 

[drjeff]

A very big part of being a ski bum life aside from the skiing is the party scene. Certainly was for me when I did it. Was it not for you? It was like 60/40 skiing to partying ratio of why I loved it

Long commutes to work and entertainment for low wages is a MASSIVE turn off. You seem kinda flippant about these longer commutes being no big deal.

I don't think I would have chosen to be a "Stowe" ski bum back then if it meant I really was a "Wolcott" ski bum who traveled 35 minutes to work, ski and party in Stowe.

That's precisely why the ski bum as we have known it is an endangered species. They look at the reality of things and say screw it, concrete jungle and weekend warrior life for me. Especially with the dirt cheap season passes which would be a laughable perk in today's dollars. And it's also precisely why ski resorts need to turn to J1s and local housing more and more. The two are related.

To be certain there will always be the year round grinder ski bums who won't mind the long commutes as long as they are in the mountains and not the city. I think those are the ski bums you speak of.

But young 20 somethings like I was, willing to share a 8 x 10 shoebox bedroom, work one job for a pass at the mountain, second for beer and weed money, split in the spring and do the same thing at the beach for the summer? That's a lifestyle I had that's on life support these days.

Is what it is

I am curious as to what percentage of the ski/beach bum lifestyle housing issue has fallen victim to the AirBnB/VRBO/real estate buy and renovate trend that has certainly changed the dynamic of the long term housing situation in so many vacation towns over the last decade?

Sure, real estate prices, especially in the last year plus, in so many vacation towns have soared, however the inventory of long term rentals vs. short term rentals has seemed to fall as well,

Tough to try and compare the housing situation for the ski/beach bum lifestyle today vs what it was 10+ years ago, since it's not really an "apples to apples" thing verses an "apples to oranges" thing in so many vacation areas now

 

[deadheadskier]

It definitely has had a major impact. I did briefly mention VRBO exasperating the short supply of convenient and reasonably priced housing in a prior post.

I know Conway is looking to limit STRs in residential areas. I'm sure this is the case in many tourist towns.

Conway selectmen to move against short-term rentals

CONWAY — Selectmen have decided they will begin the enforcement process against hundreds of short-term rental owners operating in the residential zones of the town.

www.conwaydailysun.com

 

[ctdubl07]

Any chance the OP or moderator could correct title spelling? My OCD is giving me a flare headache......

It will be interesting to see how soon "wages" are tagged to the members receiving yet another increase in fees. We've toyed with joining over the years but each successive failure, reincarnation and subsequent fee assessment tells me their likely doomed to be on wash/rinse/repeat forever.

As an aside, sitting at a golf resort north of Dallas. This morning due to lack of servers, the restaurant was closed and was told a grab/go breakfast only available at the coffee/bar area. Then was told the satellite pro shop in the hotel did not open because the main pro shop didnt have anyone to staff it.....

 

[ScottySkis]

Any chance the OP or moderator could correct title spelling? My OCD is giving me a flare headache......

It will be interesting to see how soon "wages" are tagged to the members receiving yet another increase in fees. We've toyed with joining over the years but each successive failure, reincarnation and subsequent fee assessment tells me their likely doomed to be on wash/rinse/repeat forever.

As an aside, sitting at a golf resort north of Dallas. This morning due to lack of servers, the restaurant was closed and was told a grab/go breakfast only available at the coffee/bar area. Then was told the satellite pro shop in the hotel did not open because the main pro shop didnt have anyone to staff it.....

Or post in correct thred I miss spell a lot I could fix but not doing that now

 

[mister moose]

Any chance the OP or moderator could correct title spelling? My OCD is giving me a flare headache......

We've toyed with joining over the years but each successive failure, reincarnation and subsequent fee assessment tells me their likely doomed to be on wash/rinse/repeat forever.

OCD more.

 

[drjeff]

OCD more.

There there, they're plenty of ways for one to deal with their OCD's

 

[jimmywilson69]

Any chance the OP or moderator could correct title spelling? My OCD is giving me a flare headache......

I honestly didn't even notice it was misspelled

 

[Not Sure]

I honestly didn't even notice it was misspelled

Scotty speak, looks fine to me

 

[dblskifanatic]

Did not notice it either! Scotty speak absolutely - get use to it! His own unique style