I think it's time for another lesson

[uphillklimber]

x

 

[awf170]

I realized that when I am gripping on a trail, moving towards the self preservation mode, I sit back on my heels and "steer" by kicking the rears of my skiis out instead of steering from the front of the skis. Mostly, I am scrubbing off speed and braking while I turn. Anyone else find they have done this? And how did you break yourself of doing it?

Yep I do it all the time, especially when I start to get tired. I think the best thing is to point your poles pretty far out in front of you. When your poles are out I think it is really hard to get in the back seat. To me it feels like when my hands are in the right position the rest of the body also falls right into the right position.

 

[tirolerpeter]

You know what they say about teaching yourself to ski? You firmly ingrain bad habits. I just realized a bad habit today. Not that it has ever stopped me from having fun, but think how much more fun I could be having.

A couple years ago, I had a lesson with Harold at the Loaf, where he taght me to put more weight on the front of my skiis, by keeping my shins in contact with the front of my boot, as well as shuffling thru deep snow and a few other things. His lesson was one of those memorable ones. Other lessons such as keeping my body facing downhill, while helpful were not as memorable as Harolds. Mostly because I took that lesson intent on improving a certain trait of my skiing (my quads were burning).

I realized that when I am gripping on a trail, moving towards the self preservation mode, I sit back on my heels and "steer" by kicking the rears of my skiis out instead of steering from the front of the skis. Mostly, I am scrubbing off speed and braking while I turn. Anyone else find they have done this? And how did you break yourself of doing it?

Harold was right. Keep pressuring your boots. The steeper it gets, the more pressure you should have on those boots. That doesn't necessarily mean you should be leaning forwards. You should keep your posture nicely upright (don't hunch forward), knees slightly bent (to maintain boot pressure and flex capability) and do not stick your butt out back. When you feel tension in your quads it is because your weight is back and the pressure is off your boots. If you feel tension in your quads consciously hold your arms forward (while staying upright) and you will feel the stress easing.

The "tail swishing" style you describe is common in many skiers. It works well (up to a point) and even looks kind of cool. However, it fails you on the steeps. It does not allow you to "angulate" (lay your skis over on their edges) and consequently you get no edge bite. Just when you need the most edge bite, you are flattening out your skis. In fact, if you have modern "shaped" skis you are NOT using their capabilities when you engage in "tail-swishing." The arcs (and edge bite) they are capable of generating can only happen if you are laying them on their sides. If at the same time, you are "forward" (not in the "back seat") and your stance is not too tight, (keep your feet about shoulder width apart) you will be amazed at the carving you can do. In fact, with a little practice you will find yourself carving with BOTH edges on all your turns. Think of the "holding power" of that combo!

Staying forward on the steeps is "counter-intuitive." Humans tend to shy or lean away from perceived danger. If you do that on steep terrain, you will lose your edges and control. Try a few runs with your elbows even with your hips, and your hands forward (while maintaining the posture described above). You will definitely feel the difference. Any time the terrain steepens, consciously keep pushing your arms forward, maintain your upright stance, keep your shoulders perpendicular to the fall-line, and lay your knees over slightly. You will be pleasantly surprised. Oh yes, and your "quads" will love you too.

 

[Greg]

To me it feels like when my hands are in the right position the rest of the body also falls right into the right position.

Absolutely. It's amazing how much keeping your hands forward and your "wings" spread can help.

 

[sledhaulingmedic]

Lots of good advice on technique. Tactically, you need to carve your turn and ride it right out of and across the fall line to keep your speed in check, rather letting the skis kick out (slip) across the fall line.

I took a lesson last year from an instructor named Marc up at Jay. He really helped me with timing issues and in a hour he had me with a much more agressive turn initiation. The next day at Whiteface was a blast!

A lesson early in the season is a great investment.

 

[RISkier]

I definately get into the tail pushing. For me it's not so much that I'm in the back seat as that I 1) don't finish the previous turn so I don't control speed adequately, and 2)I rush turn initiation. In short, I'm scrubbing off speed at the start of the turn rather than using turn shape to control my speed. The more challenging the terrain, the more likely I am to push the tails.

 

[bigbog]

....

$.01,
letting the inner-half of one's torso determine your upperbody's "directional intent" or "Course" eliminated my static upperbody thing I had.
"USE" your inside-half(shoulder/torso/hip) to do the upperbody-portion in initiating a turn...TRUE, it's less involved than the lowerbody(as it should!) but it does set your direction! Let your outside half follow along...(for whatever determined span of time/turn-size!) INSTEAD OF letting your outside hand/body-half come around first and pivot your whole torso...along with feet & legs. If you're not thinking about your upperbody in terms of action, it just might be the point in time where your upperbody begins losing the race with your feet/skis..y/n?
Also, once you loosen up those hips to promote angulation(tirolpeter's mentioning!!!). Another mental game that worked for me was to think about projecting your upperbody down the fall-line more, especially in that 2nd half of the turn, where our once fears of danger in the fall-line were more "Clear and Present...... :lol:
Also, try stepping up onto that outside edge of your inside ski(near end of turn-->transition Time) and make it your stancefoot, then quickly get into beginning a carve with your new inside ski...followed by rolling onto your inside edge of that new outside/stance foot/ski...another version of the "1000 Steps" exercise...remembering upper/lower body separation...
*Also(one I forget often!)...keep those hips(& hands) not only loose, but LEVEL throughout a shorter-radius turn...

Sorry for the ramblin' Uphill.., it's been a surprisingly great First day with new boots....thanks for the info for next weekend's lesson-thing! I probably would have missed it....

 

[tirolerpeter]

Tail Swishing

I definately get into the tail pushing. For me it's not so much that I'm in the back seat as that I 1) don't finish the previous turn so I don't control speed adequately, and 2)I rush turn initiation. In short, I'm scrubbing off speed at the start of the turn rather than using turn shape to control my speed. The more challenging the terrain, the more likely I am to push the tails.

Hey RIskier, I bet I could cure your "tail-pushing" in about an hour. Do you ever get a chance to ski mid-week in VT? I have worked with any number of skiers who describe themselves in the terms you do. If you are not a chronic "back seat driver" transitioning into carving should not be that hard.

 

[Charlie Schuessler]

Two basic items to stay balanced and forward ready for initiation of a carving turn, maintain contact between your shin and the boot tongue and keep your hands in front of your body.

One without the other will create imbalance, which causes skidding instead of carving.

If your legs are burning, stop and take breather…enjoy the view…it is better to rest tired muscles and improve the performance…

If you can not maintain shin-boot contact see a boot fitter (Jeff Bokum) where a footbed evaluation and/or heel lift will make a difference… :idea:

 

[SkiDork]

my $0.002 (thats two tenths of a cent)

I discovered a trick that helps me keep shin pressure:

Instead of thinking of moving my shins (and to some extent "upper body") forward, I think of moving my feet backward. This effectively (for me, anyway) puts my shins where they have to be.

FWIW....

 

[Marc]

I had the same issues last year when I began making my transition to short turn style and skiing steep terrain...

I have been doing well with it this year, though. Lots of good tips and tricks mentioned so far, but one that helps me a lot is whenever I feel myself wanting to sit back at all, I press forward with my shin and can feel my heel locking in that sweet spot in the boot and all feels right with the slopes again...

I also mentally focus on the angulation and get the muscles along sides of the torso working, and then make sure I'm feeling the force of the turn under the ball of my foot as opposed to the arch or the heel. If I feel the forces in all the right places, things kind of naturally fall into place in terms of weight and hand position after that. The bottom line is, find what works for you best to keep you in good form and then concentrate on that.

 

[SkiDork]

I press forward with my shin and can feel my heel locking in that sweet spot in the boot and all feels right with the slopes again...

Marc, this is very interesting. Can you expand on this a bit?

i.e. Is your heel lifting "up" from the bottom of the boot? Or moving somewhere at all?

I known the goal of most boot fits is to have the heel locked into place. But is that really correct?

Dork

 

[Marc]

I press forward with my shin and can feel my heel locking in that sweet spot in the boot and all feels right with the slopes again...

Marc, this is very interesting. Can you expand on this a bit?

i.e. Is your heel lifting "up" from the bottom of the boot? Or moving somewhere at all?

I known the goal of most boot fits is to have the heel locked into place. But is that really correct?

Dork

AFAIK, that is correct. What I mentioned about my heel is more of a mental thing. My foot doesn't physically move in my boot, but when I shift my weight forward you can feel the reaction force of your heel much more pronounced as your boot tongue essentially acts as the fulcrum on the lever that is your leg from the knee down.

So the distrbuted force of the heel pocket in my boot on my heel is what I was trying to get at. Sorry for any confusion!

:beer:

 

[SkiDork]

I press forward with my shin and can feel my heel locking in that sweet spot in the boot and all feels right with the slopes again...

Marc, this is very interesting. Can you expand on this a bit?

i.e. Is your heel lifting "up" from the bottom of the boot? Or moving somewhere at all?

I known the goal of most boot fits is to have the heel locked into place. But is that really correct?

Dork

AFAIK, that is correct. What I mentioned about my heel is more of a mental thing. My foot doesn't physically move in my boot, but when I shift my weight forward you can feel the reaction force of your heel much more pronounced as your boot tongue essentially acts as the fulcrum on the lever that is your leg from the knee down.

So the distrbuted force of the heel pocket in my boot on my heel is what I was trying to get at. Sorry for any confusion!

:beer:

alright - I see what you're saying.

Got some new stuff to try this weekend... Thanks.

 

[tirolerpeter]

Lesson Time?

Years ago I had a recurrent problem with ankle pain. The ski shop I used at that time provided excellent service, and worked hard to customize my boots to get the best fit. Despite these efforts I continued to experience varying degrees of ankle pain. In dscussing the problem one time Roy asked to see my stance and show him how I "un-weighted" my skis as I initiated a turn. He looked at me for a moment, and said: "OK, I see why your ankles hurt. You are trying to unweight by pushing up on the balls of your foot and lifting your heels." He was right, I was jamming my ankles at every turn. Next time I skied I consciously worked to keep my feet flat, and unweighted by "pulling up my feet" instead of "pushing up" with my ankles. Instant pain relief, and a new found sense of balance/stability. I had been (mentally, and thus physically) trying to stand on my my toes!! It also made it much easier to maintain constant pressure on my boots and maintain my stance. Yes, keep those heels down solid in your boots. Check it out next time you ski.

 

[RISkier]

Re: Tail Swishing

I definately get into the tail pushing. For me it's not so much that I'm in the back seat as that I 1) don't finish the previous turn so I don't control speed adequately, and 2)I rush turn initiation. In short, I'm scrubbing off speed at the start of the turn rather than using turn shape to control my speed. The more challenging the terrain, the more likely I am to push the tails.

Hey RIskier, I bet I could cure your "tail-pushing" in about an hour. Do you ever get a chance to ski mid-week in VT? I have worked with any number of skiers who describe themselves in the terms you do. If you are not a chronic "back seat driver" transitioning into carving should not be that hard.

Unfortuantely, I get virtually no mid-week skiing anywhere except for our ski vacation.

 

[HDHaller]

Tactically, you need to carve your turn and ride it right out of and across the fall line to keep your speed in check, rather letting the skis kick out (slip) across the fall line.

Not exactly right. The "slip" you refer to, skidding, checks speed just fine. In its most exagerated form, skidding is a hockey stop, which is the fastest way to safely stop on skis.

Carving is valuable not because it checks speed, but because it is efficient. And what's efficiency? A combination of speed and control.

-HDH

 

[KevinF]

Tactically, you need to carve your turn and ride it right out of and across the fall line to keep your speed in check, rather letting the skis kick out (slip) across the fall line.

Not exactly right. The "slip" you refer to, skidding, checks speed just fine. In its most exagerated form, skidding is a hockey stop, which is the fastest way to safely stop on skis.

Carving is valuable not because it checks speed, but because it is efficient. And what's efficiency? A combination of speed and control.

-HDH

I would agree with sledhaulingmedic in this case. Any turn -- carved or not -- can be carried not only across the fall line, but until you're facing right back uphill. Trying to ski uphill will slow you down in a big hurry. I would argue that "turning to a stop" would keep you more in control then a hockey-stop would as well. Attempting to do a hockey stop in any sort of variable conditions will most likely give you a close up view of the snow to boot.

 

[JimG.]

Tactically, you need to carve your turn and ride it right out of and across the fall line to keep your speed in check, rather letting the skis kick out (slip) across the fall line.

Not exactly right. The "slip" you refer to, skidding, checks speed just fine. In its most exagerated form, skidding is a hockey stop, which is the fastest way to safely stop on skis.

Carving is valuable not because it checks speed, but because it is efficient. And what's efficiency? A combination of speed and control.

-HDH

I would agree with sledhaulingmedic in this case. Any turn -- carved or not -- can be carried not only across the fall line, but until you're facing right back uphill. Trying to ski uphill will slow you down in a big hurry. I would argue that "turning to a stop" would keep you more in control then a hockey-stop would as well. Attempting to do a hockey stop in any sort of variable conditions will most likely give you a close up view of the snow to boot.

Interesting; I'd have to agree more with HD's analysis. Carved turns are most efficient in terms of control and SPEED. If you want to go fast, you want to carve as much as possible.

To slow speed using carved turns only, turns need to be complete (rounded) and in some cases so complete that ski tips actually do start to point UP the fall line as sled and Kevin have pointed out.

Problem is, to maintain a carved turn motion has to be somewhat deliberate, not the best scenario for an emergency stop. That's where a skidded (slipped, hockey stop) turn is more effective.

Frankly, skidding is an art that is essential in anyone's ski arsenal. Sure, everyone wants to think they only carve and never skid, but that's just not true or even possible or desireable. Somewhere along the line, skid became a dirty skiing word.

I don't buy into that.

 

[Marc]

I agree Jim. I use a bit of skid in anything but very predictable conditions.






Not to mention it's just this side of physically impossible to carve every short turn with my every day skis anyway.