Indy Ski Pass

[BenedictGomez]

Who gets to a ski area at noon?

Sometimes I dodge Vail's parking fee & show up right at 1pm. I get a solid 2.5 hours of skiing in, which is often fine for me really. Did that Thursday after working a 1/2 day.

 

[chuckstah]

They have waivers at pretty much every ski area in Wisconsin, and I think Oregon. Won't be surprised when they're everywhere.

Anybody know what system Bolton is using?

I had to sign a waiver at Killington last season on my first visit ( not a passholder), and somewhere else as well, but I can't remember where? Saddleback maybe?

 

[deadheadskier]

I had to sign a waiver at Killington last season on my first visit ( not a passholder), and somewhere else as well, but I can't remember where? Saddleback maybe?

Yes, Saddleback requires it too.

 

[deadheadskier]

I am an early riser. Decided to email Indy about the BV experience and offer suggestions for improvements. Here's what I emailed them:

First let me state that my family absolutely loves your product. This is our third year buying the pass and we will certainly renew for next season no matter what. The primary reason we love it is the pass aligns best with our values of supporting independently owned businesses. This is not just because we feel our monetary support means more to such businesses, but also because we feel independent businesses appreciate their customers more than large corporations and hence typically provide better service and a more unique / organic experience. The only things I'd change is offering a higher tiered option that allows for a third day and the biggest win would be to advance the pass technology to code for multiple RFID technologies so you can go direct to lift.

Now for the bad experience and suggestions for how to mitigate the problem in the future. On Sunday, January 19th we visited Bolton Valley. We parked and started our day at Timberline. We were one of the first customers to arrive for the day and I was about 8 customers back in line for the only ticket window they have at that base area. Due to the additional liability waivers for each skier they require (I don't recall having to do this during 2023 & 2024 visits to Bolton) and in some cases customers not having Indy pictures on file, it took me 25 minutes to get through an 8 transaction line. By the time I got our tickets, the line had more than doubled. It wouldn't surprise me if some people waited 45 minutes or more to redeem for tickets. Frustrating for the customer and the ticket counter worker that had to hear customers complain.

Suggestions to fix the problem:

1. Do not activate any Indy Passes for customers that have not uploaded their photos prior to the begin of ski season. Send out reminders that their passes are inactive without photos.

2. If possible, mandate places like Bolton to accept the liability waivers we sign when purchasing Indy so we can avoid having to fill out yet more waivers at the point of redemption.

3. If 2 is not possible, list all mountains on Indy that require additional liability waivers on your website. Make this especially clear during the purchase process with links to complete those waivers on the mountains' websites. Send out periodic reminders via email with these links and how completing it in advance saves time for everyone. I could have done some homework and completed the additional Bolton waivers prior to our arrival and saved a few minutes of my time, but I still would have had to wait for others in line in front of me to complete the waivers.

Thank you for listening to my suggestions on how to improve your great product.

 

[Smellytele]

Had to sign a waiver at Black today which makes even less sense seeing they are owned by Indy.

 

[medfordmike]

Perhaps the waiver is the out of the box setting for places that use the Entabeni System when you need a RFID card. Skied Whaleback for two hours this morning since I needed to get on the road after skiing the last couple of days. I have a photo on Indy and I had my Indy ID Card (aka a waste of plastic). They still had to set up a profile for me in their regular system, take a photo, and have me sign a waiver, then they issued an RFID card. The guy in front of me paid cash and had to do the same and they requested his license. It felt like the system was treating everyone as though they were a season pass holder. I am not sure Whaleback even has scanners to check RFIDs, I never saw one in use. It wasn't busy but with one cashier any kind of a line would slow things down. I skied Cannon on Thursday and they didn't take a photo (I can't remember if I needed to sign a waiver) and I thought I signed a waiver at Magic last weekend but could be my 50+ year old memory.

 

[Zand]

No waiver at Magic. Ticket window transaction with Indy took about 25 seconds. And they have 5 windows open, what a concept.

 

[AdironRider]

It seems pretty clear to me that Bolton got sued by some (probably Masshole) Indy pass holder, probably over something very stupid. As usual, the lawyers ruin everything.

That said, not sure how Indy (the pass) can have a blanket liability release for a bunch of independently owned mountains, at least not at the sheer scale they operate on with hundreds of affiliates.

 

[abc]

That said, not sure how Indy (the pass) can have a blanket liability release for a bunch of independently owned mountains, at least not at the sheer scale they operate on with hundreds of affiliates.

How? By making that a condition to join Indy!

“Accept our waivers or you’re not part of the network”.

But that of course could potentially drive away one or two mountains. In some case, Indy has the upper hand. Other cases, Indy needs the mountain more than the mountain needs Indy.

 

[crystalmountainskier]

It seems pretty clear to me that Bolton got sued by some (probably Masshole) Indy pass holder, probably over something very stupid. As usual, the lawyers ruin everything.

That said, not sure how Indy (the pass) can have a blanket liability release for a bunch of independently owned mountains, at least not at the sheer scale they operate on with hundreds of affiliates.

Ikon does it with dozens of partners. Epic does it with a few.

 

[trackbiker]

When you click on an area on Indy's website, there is a button for "Explore" When you click on that it list any blackout dates and if you need a reservation. They could add a note to make sure you have uploaded a photo to Indy and to go to Bolton's website to print out and sign a copy of their liability release to bring with you. Bolton would have to have a copy on their website to print out. Not major issues to add to either website.
There is a photo on my Indy Card. Does Indy issue the card if you haven't uploaded a photo? If so, maybe they should make that a requirement before issuing the card.

 

[Keelhauled]

Perhaps the waiver is the out of the box setting for places that use the Entabeni System when you need a RFID card.

Pretty sure Bolton's vendor is Axess.

 

[AdironRider]

How? By making that a condition to join Indy!

“Accept our waivers or you’re not part of the network”.

But that of course could potentially drive away one or two mountains. In some case, Indy has the upper hand. Other cases, Indy needs the mountain more than the mountain needs Indy.

Yeah no, that is not how any owner of any business is going to play ball when a single judgement could put them out of business. I'm sure the DeLauriers family is doing ok, but not throw caution to the wind our business is untouchable money. If I was their accountant I'd tell ownership the same thing, you can't afford that risk.

I think in terms of Ikon, you are dealing with operations that A) aren't at risk of going under based on one lawsuit (ex Aspen or Jackson are worth close to a billion each, probably more) and B) have very different base contracts and probably paid their robust legal teams to ensure that liability release was iron clad. Nevermind Ikon or Epic aren't dealing with hundreds of affiliates like Indy. Ikon has what, 15 -20? Epic less than that.

For all the bitching about megapasses, you can't have it both ways where an independent resort is supposed to just expend the same amount of resources as the big time billion dollar companies but still keep things cheap and approachable.

As to your last point, I think Indy needs Bolton. They are one of the better mountains on the pass ultimately. Not quite Jay caliber, but certainly comparable to Cannon or Waterville in terms of a draw to the pass. You start losing mountains like that, and Indy becomes much less enticing if its just the Dartmouth Skiways and Suicide Six's of the world.

Finally, Cannon's Indy reservation system sucks, just in a different way. I have to create and account, log in, upload a photo, etc etc etc, and I need to do it in advance. Its like 20 something clicks. Annoying just as well, and that is an Entebeni system.

PS I find this thread amusing given lots of words were said about Indy dictating the shots ala No Boundaries but now should be dictating the shots on some craptastic liability form. Entebeni is not that well run a company for me to trust them on that front.

One gripe I do have is the you need to buy our RFID card at each mountain. Just eat the 25 cents mountain.

 

[Smellytele]

Pretty sure Bolton's vendor is Axess.

Black is an Entebeni system. I still had to sign a waiver and get my photo taken...

 

[deadheadskier]

So I did get a response from my email. No real details other than they said they actually had a meeting this morning and admit they have a redemption efficiency problem and are looking into how to improve it. So, we will see how things change for next year.

At minimum I think they should send out a list of places that require waivers and links to do them online in advance.

 

[PAabe]

I think RFID is overhyped in general at smaller ski areas where it is not particularly necessary. Just print out a ticket for the wicket and be done with it rather than messing with all the card and gate shenanigans

A ticket printing kiosk can be automated just as easily if not more so than one that prints rfid cards and does not give the excuse to charge an extra $5 for the card

 

[KustyTheKlown]

Every rfid gate is at least one or two fewer employees needed to check tickets. They need a defense against theft of services. Investing in the gates makes complete sense if you don’t want to pay an extra person or two to staff each lift

 

[deadheadskier]

Case in point, Bolton this weekend. They did not have a single extra employee at the chairs. Just the person bumping and one extra person in the bottom lift shacks at Vista and Timberline. Holiday weekend. Now Vista could have used someone organizing the line on Sunday as it was a free for all and the result was lots of half full chairs going up. But I get the sense that's just part of the culture. They expect the customers to figure it out and pair up.

 

[AdironRider]

The amount of theft of services RFID prevents is pretty astounding. Even for a small mom and pop you are talking serious money.

 

[deadheadskier]

The amount of theft of services RFID prevents is pretty astounding. Even for a small mom and pop you are talking serious money.

In the 90s, VT ski area GMs estimated 5-10% of guests were unpaid. In an industry with such tight margins, that's the difference between survival and closure.