Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[skiingsnow]

If it wasn't opening day then what was it. Friday you can say wasn't opening day but why not Saturday.

Friday was opening day, saturday was day 2.

!!!

 

[tjf67]

In my little head I think K gets bashed to much but they bring a lot of it on themselves.

Wouldn't it have been cool for k to come out say. hey folks we are not completely ready. We know you season passholders are chomping at the bit so tell you what. We wont open to the general public but Sat we will spin the lift for you folks for 5 hours so come on up and see how we are doing. Think that might have made passholders happy? I bet it would and probably sold a couple more if they let people know they could buy them if they came up

 

[drjeff]

In my little head I think K gets bashed to much but they bring a lot of it on themselves.

Wouldn't it have been cool for k to come out say. hey folks we are not completely ready. We know you season passholders are chomping at the bit so tell you what. We wont open to the general public but Sat we will spin the lift for you folks for 5 hours so come on up and see how we are doing. Think that might have made passholders happy? I bet it would and probably sold a couple more if they let people know they could buy them if they came up

Playing the roll of "arm chair ski area GM" for a moment. That scenario, while maybe some good PR towards a group of folks for whom you've already GOT their $$ for this coming season, won't cost the mountain any less in operational personel, then if they opened it up to the general public and charged some $$ for tickets(a group of folks for whom they DON'T have their $$ locked up for the season)

The big issue, and one that's often tough for many to comprehend, is that one does need to seperate emotion from logic when looking at this. And of course the emotional repsonse is to open up the 1st second the guns have deposited a light layer of frost on the ground, whereas the logical response looks at costs, product, etc. Those are the 2 extremes, and in reality most areas will operate somewhere inbetween those 2 extremes. How close to one extreme or the other an area chooses to operate is what often seperates them from being "heroes" in our eyes and from being a$$'s in our eyes!

 

[daytripper]

Never posted here before,but this has led me to make my first. Just have to give my opinion which is that the beast of the east (are they still calling themselves that this year) did not open with all that snow, and the stairway is pathetic. I ski there every year and stay at a share house on the access rd. I have been skiing in much worse conditions then what they could have offered higher up and always did it with a big smile on my face. While this isnt as bad as the closing fiasco last year, why not try and make the killington faithful happy and open for the weekend? Then I would be on the mountain right now smiling and then having beers at bay 1 saying how powder finally did it right, but instead I am home typing this and almost out of faith with powder.

 

[thetrailboss]

Never posted here before,but this has led me to make my first. Just have to give my opinion which is that the beast of the east (are they still calling themselves that this year) did not open with all that snow, and the stairway is pathetic. I ski there every year and stay at a share house on the access rd. I have been skiing in much worse conditions then what they could have offered higher up and always did it with a big smile on my face. While this isnt as bad as the closing fiasco last year, why not try and make the killington faithful happy and open for the weekend? Then I would be on the mountain right now smiling and then having beers at bay 1 saying how powder finally did it right, but instead I am home typing this and almost out of faith with powder.

Welcome to the boards and sorry that this topic got the first post. I hope that you stick around here because we have folks that ski at many different areas and can give you some information on other places to try.

 

[deadheadskier]

The big issue, and one that's often tough for many to comprehend, is that one does need to seperate emotion from logic when looking at this. And of course the emotional repsonse is to open up the 1st second the guns have deposited a light layer of frost on the ground, whereas the logical response looks at costs, product, etc. Those are the 2 extremes, and in reality most areas will operate somewhere inbetween those 2 extremes. How close to one extreme or the other an area chooses to operate is what often seperates them from being "heroes" in our eyes and from being a$$'s in our eyes!

Normally I'd agree with you 100% given your experience as a business owner and my own experience managing businesses and ensuring maximum flow through to the bottom line.

In the case of Killington, I whole heartedly disagree. Powdr has absolutely destroyed the Killington brand. For decades, that brand was built around having the longest season in the East. They would open by any means necessary as early as possible and stay open as late into spring as they possibly could, even if it meant walking down the headwall of SuperStar. It worked!! For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington. Now? The estimates are 650K, which is only slightly more than the likes of Okemo, Sunday River, Mt. Snow and Stratton.

I don't care how well you mange flow through, there is no way you can convince me that the current K model generating 650K skier visits is as profitable as when they were doing a million plus.

Not opening this weekend is just as bad for their brand as the horse shit closing decision last year. They've forgetten the single most important concept in managing a business. You deposit dollars in the bank, not percentages.

 

[thetrailboss]

Normally I'd agree with you 100% given your experience as a business owner and my own experience managing businesses and ensuring maximum flow through to the bottom line.

In the case of Killington, I whole heartedly disagree. Powdr has absolutely destroyed the Killington brand. For decades, that brand was built around having the longest season in the East. They would open by any means necessary as early as possible and stay open as late into spring as they possibly could, even if it meant walking down the headwall of SuperStar. It worked!! For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington. Now? The estimates are 650K, which is only slightly more than the likes of Okemo, Sunday River, Mt. Snow and Stratton.

I don't care how well you mange flow through, there is no way you can convince me that the current K model generating 650K skier visits is as profitable as when they were doing a million plus.

Not opening this weekend is just as bad for their brand as the horse shit closing decision last year. They've forgetten the single most important concept in managing a business. You deposit dollars in the bank, not percentages.

I agree with DHS.

When you look at the history of the Killington brand, you see that Pres Smith was very innovative and decided from the first day that the "product" was skiing. When you had more product, you made more money. They were one of the first big mountains to install snowmaking. Why? Not because they needed it, but because it allowed them to open earlier and stay open later. Pres explained, I believe, in Karen Lorentz's book that when you extend the season on both ends, you extend the length of your "prime season" in the middle. You also earn a reputation that brings people to the middle of the ski season.

How does this work? Nearly every season Killington was the first to open for many years if not decades. Almost every east coast news outlet picked up on the story and would put it on the air. Killington open in October? Skiing in October? Skiing in June? Then they must have snow.

Now when it came time for people to book their ski vacations in the middle of the winter, they'd ask themselves, "who will definitely have snow?" And images of people skiing in October and June at Killington came into their heads and they would book at Killington. They would pay a premium as well because they knew that Killington would have snow and the best conditions...or so they thought.

It WORKED. The long season was essential to the brand in the 1960's-early 2000's. Of course what happened after Pres left was the "product" became more the lodging and real estate, which was something that Pres has admitted he was not good at. He was good at the ski business. This is part of the reason why there is no "Village" because of his focus on skiing. He attempted to have other people at SKI do the real estate work and they ran into challenges and delays. All the meantime Pres was installing new lifts, new trails, and working on the skiing.

I blame ASC for beginning the end of Killington. When they installed the gondola, they pretty much killed the feasibility of early season skiing. They knew that. But they were marketing Killington as not just skiing.

Enter POWDR. They are trying a different strategy. It is what it is.

 

[riverc0il]

DHS is spot on here. What else can K build their brand around? What else can they offer? The Access Road? High trail count alone won't do it. K needs to fill all of those trails with guests and they need an identify to not only get guests there, but keep them coming back. Be they day skiers, pass holders, or real estate owners. You don't get attached to a mountain because of the trail alone. You get attached to mountains because of the intangibles. How the place makes you feel. How you feel about the place, etc. You get attached to certain mountains because of identity. Something K lacks right now in a major way.

 

[riverc0il]

I blame ASC for beginning the end of Killington. When they installed the gondola, they pretty much killed the feasibility of early season skiing. They knew that. But they were marketing Killington as not just skiing.

The new cat walk to North Ridge eliminates the gondola problem so K now has no excuse. At least no legitimate excuse...

I think we can all agree that if a business does not want to be an early season player, that is fine. No one is going to knock Snow, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, etc. for not trying to open sooner. But when you build a cat walk and blow snow following over a foot of snow and don't open.... well, that is just really confusing because I think we can all agree that K had plenty of opportunity to make a product that ANY ONE willing to ski in October would have been more than satisfied with.

 

[drjeff]

Normally I'd agree with you 100% given your experience as a business owner and my own experience managing businesses and ensuring maximum flow through to the bottom line.

In the case of Killington, I whole heartedly disagree. Powdr has absolutely destroyed the Killington brand. For decades, that brand was built around having the longest season in the East. They would open by any means necessary as early as possible and stay open as late into spring as they possibly could, even if it meant walking down the headwall of SuperStar. It worked!! For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington. Now? The estimates are 650K, which is only slightly more than the likes of Okemo, Sunday River, Mt. Snow and Stratton.

I don't care how well you mange flow through, there is no way you can convince me that the current K model generating 650K skier visits is as profitable as when they were doing a million plus.

Not opening this weekend is just as bad for their brand as the horse shit closing decision last year. They've forgetten the single most important concept in managing a business. You deposit dollars in the bank, not percentages.

The thing that is tough for so many to accept (me included and I first skied K in the winter of '82-'83 and have skied there over the years from late Oct through early June at one point or another) is that FWIW, Powdr has decided that "their" vision of the K brand is only going to be X% (insert whatever number you want) of what the "old" K brand was. If they felt that "their" brand of K wan't financially viable, you'd more than likely see them either selling ASAP or reverting back to the "old" Pres Smith era brand. I'm not saying that I agree with their descision (and frankly I don't because the ski addict in me realizes that a K that opens real early and stays open real late pushes their competitors to extend their seasons), but like I said earlier, sometimes in business one has to consider more the logical side of their brains than the emotional side.

That being said, did they dissapoint some folks this weekend, no doubt about it. But the reality is, that most of the folks that would have been riding the lifts at K this weekend would have been season passholders (K already has their $$ locked up, and most K season passholders seem to keep buying K season passes in subsequent years for various reasons) or some hardcore skiers/riders for whom K to them is just an option to start their season a few weeks earlier and possibly extend their season a few weeks later in the spring(if they're not hiking for turns someplace else), but for the majority of those potential ticket buyers this weekend, K just isn't "hardcore" enough for them mid-season. Lastly, the product that K is offering for the vast majority of their season, seems to keep the vast majority of the K regulars happy (better snow surfaces, less crowding, better infastructure).

So if they're turning a profit, the reality is that the negative press that hey may be getting now really only afffects such a small percentage of their bottomline, that they're willing to deal with it. And I think that most of us can agree on one thing, the longterm K "addict" is basically a different breed than almost any other type of ski area fan out there

 

[Johnskiismore]

I think the last four posts are dead on!

 

[AdironRider]

Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.

I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.

If Killington is going to open with an entire trail pod, and not just 1/2 of 1 trail like SR, then stay open continuously, then people should be very happy. That is an opening. Sunday River is letting people get some yes, but I dont think its exactly comparing apples to apples here.

Just getting snow down onto Great Northern to the North Ridge area, as I mentioned before, probably takes more alone than SR had to blow on T2 to get open, then add the remaining North Ridge trails, and yeah, theyre going to need some more time and more snow than they got. I dont know of many ski areas that can open with just a foot of natural on bare ground.

If they had opened with just Great Northern or some variation just to the catwalk everyone would have been just as pissed. And if K opens in a week and stays open till late April or May, they would smoke SR in terms of total days open if you ask me.

 

[Bostonian]

Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.

I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.

If Killington is going to open with an entire trail pod, and not just 1/2 of 1 trail like SR, then stay open continuously, then people should be very happy. That is an opening. Sunday River is letting people get some yes, but I dont think its exactly comparing apples to apples here.

Just getting snow down onto Great Northern to the North Ridge area, as I mentioned before, probably takes more alone than SR had to blow on T2 to get open, then add the remaining North Ridge trails, and yeah, theyre going to need some more time and more snow than they got. I dont know of many ski areas that can open with just a foot of natural on bare ground.

If they had opened with just Great Northern or some variation just to the catwalk everyone would have been just as pissed. And if K opens in a week and stays open till late April or May, they would smoke SR in terms of total days open if you ask me.

Except Sunday River is now open with two trails. Having two now operating, does that consist of a pod? With T2 and Upper Sunday Punch... I would venture to say that it does. while I wasn't able to get up to the River today, I do think that their early opening does make perfect business sense. By getting it out there, that they are the first to open (albeit weekends) and to provide a product for people to use, it gets many people in the mood for skiing. An example is at work, my co-workers, who ski maybe 2 times a year, were impressed and already thinking of booking trips. I suggested Sunday River, based on their customer service image that have put out. That of being ready to go out above and beyond to get skiers and riders on the snow as early as possible with a good product.

 

[riverc0il]

Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.

Telling me to relax implies I was worked up.:roll: This is nothing more than a discussion. I doubt my definition of quality is much different than any one else that would be willing to ski in October. That said, here is the quality I saw yesterday at SR: no rocks, no base damage, ample coverage, bumps and varying terrain features, etc. It isn't like SR opened up with rocks poking through the snow and folks are damaging their skis. No need for rock skis this weekend. That is quality. Was it groomed wall to wall flat as a pancake quality? No. As I suggested in my earlier post, I don't think most folks looking to ski in October require that type of quality...

 

[AdironRider]

The new cat walk to North Ridge eliminates the gondola problem so K now has no excuse. At least no legitimate excuse...

I think we can all agree that if a business does not want to be an early season player, that is fine. No one is going to knock Snow, Stowe, Jay, Smuggs, etc. for not trying to open sooner. But when you build a cat walk and blow snow following over a foot of snow and don't open.... well, that is just really confusing because I think we can all agree that K had plenty of opportunity to make a product that ANY ONE willing to ski in October would have been more than satisfied with.

Typing in all CAPS to make a point usually implies some form of emotion with your post, most likely you were a bit worked up.

And Id beg to differ that everyone skiing in October is looking for exactly the same thing you are, but thats an argument noone can prove.

But when its 50 degrees and raining in the middle of November, K management will more than likely pat themselves on the back, because they would have made the right call...just like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Were talking about an October 22nd opening date on the East Coast here, I dont think anyone commited a crime by not opening.

 

[Smellytele]

Typing in all CAPS to make a point usually implies some form of emotion with your post, most likely you were a bit worked up.

And Id beg to differ that everyone skiing in October is looking for exactly the same thing you are, but thats an argument noone can prove.

But when its 50 degrees and raining in the middle of November, K management will more than likely pat themselves on the back, because they would have made the right call...just like last year, and the year before that, and the year before that. Were talking about an October 22nd opening date on the East Coast here, I dont think anyone commited a crime by not opening.

Then why did they blow any snow?

 

[deadheadskier]

But when its 50 degrees and raining in the middle of November, K management will more than likely pat themselves on the back, because they would have made the right call...

more like, why did we even bother making snow. had they opened this weekend, they'd at least get a marketing return. blowing snow for nothing, you get nothing

 

[roark]

That being said, did they dissapoint some folks this weekend, no doubt about it. But the reality is, that most of the folks that would have been riding the lifts at K this weekend would have been season passholders (K already has their $$ locked up, and most K season passholders seem to keep buying K season passes in subsequent years for various reasons) or some hardcore skiers/riders for whom K to them is just an option to start their season a few weeks earlier and possibly extend their season a few weeks later in the spring(if they're not hiking for turns someplace else), but for the majority of those potential ticket buyers this weekend, K just isn't "hardcore" enough for them mid-season.

But they miss out on a large # of potential passholders by not differentiating their brand from every other mountain. If K offered early/late skiing, I'd still be a passholder there. You're right, I hardly ever went mid-season when better options are available.

Now I simply don't go to K at all.

 

[AdironRider]

more like, why did we even bother making snow. had they opened this weekend, they'd at least get a marketing return. blowing snow for nothing, you get nothing

Cause everything they blew would have gone to shit by the end of the weekend, then they have inferior product that still needs to make it a month till its consistently cold.

They can blow snow and set a base, then add to it when temps allow. Ski it all off and you''re doing damage. Jackson Hole does this every year as well, but hides behind their "permit" limitations so they dont have to keep blowing snow for two straight months just to maintain a few trails on AV. This way they spend about a week on each trail then move on. Different markets, different weather, yeah, but doesnt change the fact that skiers have an adverse effect on snow quality and preservation.

I can see why they didnt open if they are looking for quality product, this isnt a suprise to anyone at this point. Killington has opened with by far the most terrain the last couple years, which I think is great. Sunday River's opening is more like that place in CT that blows a couple hundred feet and cranks up a tbar. At least with K you get a gondi, and 2-3 trail variations, plus the K access road vibe, if thats your thing. Noone gives that place in CT kudos, but for some reason a couple rails (holy crap they really brought their A game!) and a mountain where half the board has a seasons pass does it, and its gods gift to skiing. Hate to break it to, but every single ski area in the country opens with at least 1 rail on the side of a trail these days. Its not a big deal.

At least with the place in CT most of you guys werent driving 8+ hours round trip for basically the same product. 1 dinky trail with a couple rails.

But hey, theres snow on the ground and its October, but apparently everyone still likes to bitch about Killington regardless.

 

[drjeff]

But they miss out on a large # of potential passholders by not differentiating their brand from every other mountain. If K offered early/late skiing, I'd still be a passholder there. You're right, I hardly ever went mid-season when better options are available.

Now I simply don't go to K at all.

With respect to the "modern" New England lift served ski season length these days, there are very few, if any, ski areas where one's pass will potentially get them more days on snow, at the same mountain, over the course of a season than the K pass offers a customer.

The reality is that today, with so many more "warm" weather opportunities to draw folks attention away from snow sliding activities, that the "modern" New England lift served ski season is 6 to 8 weeks shorter than it used to be. Can an area turn a profit during the fringe seasons?? Sure, but I think that it's quite safe to say that fringe season operations aren't a big cash cow at any area, or else I'm sure that we'd be seeing a bunch more places in the race to open 1st and then stay open the latest, and that's an unfortunate thing in my book