Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[threecy]

Killington & Pico Skier Visits under American Skiing Company (from 10-K filings)

1997-98: 1,077,000
1998-99: 978,000
1999-00: 939,000
2000-01: 1,085,000
2001-02: 953,000
2002-03: 1,045,000
2003-04: 955,000
2004-05: 986,000
2005-06: 795,000

 

[Highway Star]

I agree with DHS.

When you look at the history of the Killington brand, you see that Pres Smith was very innovative and decided from the first day that the "product" was skiing. When you had more product, you made more money. They were one of the first big mountains to install snowmaking. Why? Not because they needed it, but because it allowed them to open earlier and stay open later. Pres explained, I believe, in Karen Lorentz's book that when you extend the season on both ends, you extend the length of your "prime season" in the middle. You also earn a reputation that brings people to the middle of the ski season.

How does this work? Nearly every season Killington was the first to open for many years if not decades. Almost every east coast news outlet picked up on the story and would put it on the air. Killington open in October? Skiing in October? Skiing in June? Then they must have snow.

Now when it came time for people to book their ski vacations in the middle of the winter, they'd ask themselves, "who will definitely have snow?" And images of people skiing in October and June at Killington came into their heads and they would book at Killington. They would pay a premium as well because they knew that Killington would have snow and the best conditions...or so they thought.

It WORKED. The long season was essential to the brand in the 1960's-early 2000's. Of course what happened after Pres left was the "product" became more the lodging and real estate, which was something that Pres has admitted he was not good at. He was good at the ski business. This is part of the reason why there is no "Village" because of his focus on skiing. He attempted to have other people at SKI do the real estate work and they ran into challenges and delays. All the meantime Pres was installing new lifts, new trails, and working on the skiing.

I blame ASC for beginning the end of Killington. When they installed the gondola, they pretty much killed the feasibility of early season skiing. They knew that. But they were marketing Killington as not just skiing.

Enter POWDR. They are trying to make the most money with the least bodies so that they can operate most efficiently. They figure if they can make $X off of 600,000 visits as opposed to 1 million visits, why spend more money and have to contend with more people? And sadly, a lot of the "old Killington skiers" are getting upset and not seeing that Killington wants to "Move Up" by doing an "out with the old, in with the new" routine. They don't want to listen to complaining and instead want to get new people who want the "new" Killington, whatever that is.....

Exceptionally good post.

Personally, I view the weekly skier visit figures thoughout the season as taking a sort of bell curve shape, when plotted against date. So, less at the beginning and end, lots in the middle. Problem is, they shrank the bell curve, in width (shorter season).......resulting in lower peak volume as well. They've lost 350k yearly visits, that's probably 50k early and late season visits, the rest are mid season, top $$$$ visits. Ouch.

Major problem for them is that Killington is "the church for easter sunday", to quote Dave Rathburn. Too many lifts, too many trails, costs too much money to run. POWDR is in tough spot having lost so many visits. They have to make the snow and run at least the primary lifts - what gets cut is the quality of services, resurface snowmaking, grooming, running secondary lifts, base depths, season length, etc, etc. Without the skier visits to support proper operations, it's not the same place it was when it was a true premium operation 15 years ago.

They currently lack a strong year-round, four season resort strategy which is hurting real estate.

Real estate and business in the region is in a major depression. There are many properties falling into disrepair or businesses shutting down. One of the theories proposed when POWDR came in is that they were tasked with running the regional economy into the ground, destroying the weak businesses and properties. Then a village would be pushed through and skier visits would be regrown, with the village benefiting. Sounds like they are still on that path.

I downgraded to a blackout pass this year, and did not get a parking pass. That was because they closed early in the spring. A good number of my friends did the same.

After this fiasco, I won't be spending any money at Killington resort's businesses this year - food/bev, gear, etc. There are plenty of places down the access road that deserve my business. I won't be inviting anybody up to spend money at Killington resort. I'll ski ~50 days on the blackout pass, @ $13 per day, negatively impacting their yield per visit numbers. They may have some of my money "locked" up, but this kind of BS ensures they won't get any more.

This will probably be my last year at Killington anyway, I've had enough, and will be planning to take a group of people to start a house at Sugarbush or Stowe. Maybe even SR/SL....eewwww.

 

[Highway Star]

Killington & Pico Skier Visits under American Skiing Company (from 10-K filings)

1997-98: 1,077,000
1998-99: 978,000
1999-00: 939,000
2000-01: 1,085,000
2001-02: 953,000
2002-03: 1,045,000
2003-04: 955,000
2004-05: 986,000
2005-06: 795,000

Figures in the early 90's and late 80's were stronger.

 

[jerryg]

No one is debating that when K opens, they open with more terrain than SR, but saying that SR's opening is like Woodbury is just ridiculous and is again akin to more sour grapes. I don't really think anyone in here is bitching about K and the comment half the board members having a pass at SR us probably pretty far off as well. I would say that the majority of board members ski in Vermont. Regardless, who cares? SR opened and people had fun. They had a couple tails open and the vert is the same as that Glades.

 

[Geoff]

Figures in the early 90's and late 80's were stronger.

I'm not sure you can trust the Preston Smith numbers. SEC reporting regulations were different then.

 

[threecy]

I'm not sure you can trust the Preston Smith numbers. SEC reporting regulations were different then.

Also, some of the inflated skier visit numbers from the S-K-I Ltd. days included Mt. Snow (similar to how they were combining Killington and Mt. Snow in some newspaper snow reports). I believe the first million skier visit year was reported was circa 1987.

 

[Geoff]

Also, some of the inflated skier visit numbers from the S-K-I Ltd. days included Mt. Snow (similar to how they were combining Killington and Mt. Snow in some newspaper snow reports). I believe the first million skier visit year was reported was circa 1987.

I don't think it matters. Under POWDR, Killington is down 30%. You can look at traffic counters or state sales tax collection numbers. As I wrote earlier in this thread, it's now fine on what used to be super-crowded holiday periods. Most season pass holders are skiing on blackout passes so the advanced terrain is fairly uncrowded. POWDR is short staffed so Snowshed and Rams Head lodges and services are a disaster. You can usually get a seat in Mahogany Ridge in KBL or Bear bar at noon. The high speed lifts and the gondolas are busy but the fixed grip lifts don't get used by the tourists.

 

[deadheadskier]

For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington. .

I officially retract this statement.

Please read:

For decades Killington averaged north of 900K skier visits, several times exceeding the one million mark.

Happy threecy?

 

[MonkeyBrook]

Bottom line, we skied at SR Sat and Sunday and no one skied (lift serviced at K).....K will open soon and skiing will be great as well. As for conditions, they were exactly as one would expect for October 23-24. I would rather ski on what I did this weekend vs waiting for a few weeks....just my $.02.

 

[threecy]

I officially retract this statement.

Please read:

For decades Killington averaged north of 900K skier visits, several times exceeding the one million mark.

Happy threecy?

Just wanted to make sure a clearer picture is out there. I would read "well north of a million skiers" as anywhere from 1.1M to perhaps 1.9M - if it where in that range consistently, it would be a 50%+ dropoff.

 

[JerseyJoey]

Bottom line, we skied at SR Sat and Sunday and no one skied (lift serviced at K).....K will open soon and skiing will be great as well. As for conditions, they were exactly as one would expect for October 23-24. I would rather ski on what I did this weekend vs waiting for a few weeks....just my $.02.

Lucky bastard. Good for you guys. Very Beastly.

 

[Highway Star]

I don't think it matters. Under POWDR, Killington is down 30%. You can look at traffic counters or state sales tax collection numbers. As I wrote earlier in this thread, it's now fine on what used to be super-crowded holiday periods. Most season pass holders are skiing on blackout passes so the advanced terrain is fairly uncrowded. POWDR is short staffed so Snowshed and Rams Head lodges and services are a disaster. You can usually get a seat in Mahogany Ridge in KBL or Bear bar at noon. The high speed lifts and the gondolas are busy but the fixed grip lifts don't get used by the tourists.

I think you can figure on 1.3M+ peak skier visits for Killington and Pico combined, in the early 90's, when they were separate businesses. Thus they are down 50% from peak.

If you look at the SEC sales docs for pico -> asc, the target was 1.4M+ skiers per year with the interconnect and village. They have a loooooong way to go.

 

[Riverskier]

AdironRider- You are clearly misinformed. The general consensus among people who have skied both places is that the terrain/vertical of T2 and Upper Sunday Punch is comparable to the terrain/vertical of the trails Killington opens with. Comparing Sunday River's opening to Woodbury is laughable.

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that most of the negativity about Sunday River's opening is coming from people who didn't ski this weekend. The general consensus among those who skied Sunday River this weekend was that the conditions were pretty good, at least by October standards. I skied yesterday and had a blast! No base damage and I thought the snow quality was pretty good. And after a 6 month off season, 2 600 vert runs is more than enough terrain to have a great time and knock the rust off. So, to those reading this thread, who do you want to believe, a K marketing rep that is a sore loser, people like AdironRider who can't get their facts straight, people assessing conditions from their computer screens hundreds of mile away, or those who were actually there?

I for one say thank you Boyne! You made many of your core customers and other chomping at the bit very happy! I am sure you will be rewarded for your efforts, if not by ticket sales, through the publicity you receive from being first in the nation, and the goodwill you create you with your customers.

 

[RootDKJ]

...and those hardcore ones who earned their turns at Killington today.

I thought K didn't allow folks to earn turns while "snowmaking operations" were underway?

 

[Mildcat]

adironrider- you are clearly misinformed. The general consensus among people who have skied both places is that the terrain/vertical of t2 and upper sunday punch is comparable to the terrain/vertical of the trails killington opens with. Comparing sunday river's opening to woodbury is laughable.

The funny thing about this whole discussion is that most of the negativity about sunday river's opening is coming from people who didn't ski this weekend. The general consensus among those who skied sunday river this weekend was that the conditions were pretty good, at least by october standards. I skied yesterday and had a blast! No base damage and i thought the snow quality was pretty good. And after a 6 month off season, 2 600 vert runs is more than enough terrain to have a great time and knock the rust off. So, to those reading this thread, who do you want to believe, a k marketing rep that is a sore loser, people like adironrider who can't get their facts straight, people assessing conditions from their computer screens hundreds of mile away, or those who were actually there?

I for one say thank you boyne! You made many of your core customers and other chomping at the bit very happy! I am sure you will be rewarded for your efforts, if not by ticket sales, through the publicity you receive from being first in the nation, and the goodwill you create you with your customers.

^^^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^^^

 

[Mildcat]

I thought K didn't allow folks to earn turns while "snowmaking operations" were underway?

Nice catch Root! :lol:

 

[Geoff]

I thought K didn't allow folks to earn turns while "snowmaking operations" were underway?

They don't want people up there if they have guns going with snowmaking hoses out in the middle of the trail or snow cats on the trails pushing snow around. I think that's reasonable.

 

[Highway Star]

Was this a waste of a walkway? I just looked at the NOAA elevation forecast and accuweather 15 day. Assuming the forecast pans out, haha: things DO NOT look good for opening this weekend it is going to be wet + warm and I have to assume much of those piles are going to met. But the week after, temps drop off dramaticly, they can start rebuilding up top and then move down into snowdon and bunny buster starting next Wednesday. So they could conceivably open top to bottom off the K-1 on Friday 11/5/10 or Saturday 11/6/10. If the weather stays cooler, they might not even have the need for the walkway this year. I will be bothered if they built this walkway and then open as normal and don't use it. Was it really just a cheap hedge against being shut down on Thanksgiving?

I liked heavenly traverse as a trail.

 

[mondeo]

Was this a waste of a walkway? I just looked at the NOAA elevation forecast and accuweather 15 day. Assuming the forecast pans out, haha: things DO NOT look good for opening this weekend it is going to be wet + warm and I have to assume much of those piles are going to met. But the week after, temps drop off dramaticly, they can start rebuilding up top and then move down into snowdon and bunny buster starting next Wednesday. So they could conceivably open top to bottom off the K-1 on Friday 11/5/10 or Saturday 11/6/10. If the weather stays cooler, they might not even have the need for the walkway this year. I will be bothered if they built this walkway and then open as normal and don't use it. Was it really just a cheap hedge against being shut down on Thanksgiving?

I liked heavenly traverse as a trail.

They'll probably use it to claim "first to open for the season" and call it good enough, but that'll only give them a couple days.

I just don't understand it. According to all reports and any reasonable estimation, they had enough snow to open before SR and with probably better base depth. They spent the money on the snow, spent the money on the walkway. The only other expenses would have been grooming, operating two lifts and the lodges. I've gotta believe that's at least close to breaking even given $50 tickets and packing the mountain, and announcing that they'd be open on Friday would have gotten them visits from almost anyone who skied SR on Friday. I'm not sure why they insist on full width, not a pebble showing conditions to open in mid-October with, but that's the only thing that I can think of that would cause them not to open. That or there's significant expense having staff work three days and then not work again for 2 weeks.

 

[Highway Star]

They'll probably use it to claim "first to open for the season" and call it good enough, but that'll only give them a couple days.

I just don't understand it. According to all reports and any reasonable estimation, they had enough snow to open before SR and with probably better base depth. They spent the money on the snow, spent the money on the walkway. The only other expenses would have been grooming, operating two lifts and the lodges. I've gotta believe that's at least close to breaking even given $50 tickets and packing the mountain, and announcing that they'd be open on Friday would have gotten them visits from almost anyone who skied SR on Friday. I'm not sure why they insist on full width, not a pebble showing conditions to open in mid-October with, but that's the only thing that I can think of that would cause them not to open. That or there's significant expense having staff work three days and then not work again for 2 weeks.

It boggles the mind, really. I suppose this has to be taken in the context of all the other extremely poor decisions/blunders they have made over the past few years and the motivations behind them.