Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season.

[threecy]

For decades well north of a million skiers came every season to Killington.

Huh?

 

[riverc0il]

Typing in all CAPS to make a point usually implies some form of emotion with your post, most likely you were a bit worked up.

Adding caps for two words is simply adding emphasis. Its an attempt to deal with the inherent limitations of online communications in which you can not include inflection in your written word. Just like I might use an emoticon to express what you might not be able to understand simply by reading the typed word. :roll:

I hesitate to continue to beat the dead horse, but you kind of twisted my words. I merely suggested any one willing to ski in October is likely doing so with the understanding that coverage will not be perfect and they may need to bring their "rock skis". I think this is a pretty universally held thought for those skiing in October. I never said "everyone is looking for the same thing I am"... but rather there is an understanding that early season and especially October is not going to be perfect wall to wall. As K wants to define it, they simply can not have October skiing if they want to meet their regular season guest expectations. And that is fine. I have skied October enough to get the feel for the a significant number of October skiers out there. They are not the norm. And their expectations are much less than the norm. There are no real expectations at all. Folks are just really stoked to be skiing in October and don't really care that much about coverage.

 

[AdironRider]

Dude, you spouted off that anyone would be happy with the product, in ALL CAPS. You and I both have been on this forum and others long enough to know that the way you wrote that was an armchair quarterback statement, with broad generalizations of peoples preference. Its fine, I would rather ski K than Sunday River anyones, and as many people on this board have agreed, yourself included. Im just not that bent out of shape they didnt open, while you wish they were. I didnt twist your words. You said anyone skiing in October would have been happy with the product, and I disagreed, as I think plenty of casual skiers would be interested in skiing in October, but not on a crap product. To each their own, and Ive skied plenty early season myself.

The Denver market and the clientel at Loveland on opening weekend shows there are plenty of gapers still willing to get after it in October, and while yes, different markets, I dont see only hardcores being the only ones back East. But I suppose if you want to go with wide blanket statements, yes, more hardcores are out than other skiers, yes.

 

[deadheadskier]

Huh?

oh master of ski business knowledge, why don't you give us a year by year breakdown from K's inception

 

[threecy]

oh master of ski business knowledge, why don't you give us a year by year breakdown from K's inception

I'm not expert on Killington, but "well north of a million skiers" doesn't sound right, especially "For decades"

 

[AdironRider]

I know for a while (90's era) they did a couple million plus seasons, but Im no encylopedia.

 

[jerryg]

I find it amusing that there was a whole thread about what constitutes a legit opening and what SR has done was considered to have met said definition. But now that they've opened first, on the same amount of vert as glades, and with an additional trail today, people are backtracking and crapping on them for what people don't consider 'quality.' that is spool lame. People wanted go ski and SR made it happen. People there have been happy and unfortunately there are some poor sports. Me? I'm just ticked I'm down in FLA and can't ski till next weekend.

 

[abc]

It's fun people keep debating on this thread. Because every time I open the thread list page, there's this glaring thread title "Killington is going to open before Sunday River this season"!

I wonder how many more weeks this thread will stay alive, keep reminding everyone K did NOT open on the weekend of Oct 23/24, when Sunday River did. Now, re-definte "before"!

I'll also look up the defintition of "embarassment" and see if it fits...

 

[whitemtn27]

The thing that is tough for so many to accept (me included and I first skied K in the winter of '82-'83 and have skied there over the years from late Oct through early June at one point or another) is that FWIW, Powdr has decided that "their" vision of the K brand is only going to be X% (insert whatever number you want) of what the "old" K brand was.

This is exactly right. Killington built their following based on size, nightlife, and consistently having a very long (if not the longest) season year in, year out.

You can get hung up on details. Was this weekend's product potentially not worth it? Will people tolerate thin cover? Might it rain in November and waste some investment? These aren't really important. You can argue for years about this forecast or that water bar and never reach a consensus that everyone is happy with.

What's upsetting is the lack of commitment to the long season. They can't seem to decide if it's their thing or not, and it's hurting them. Say I'm in the market for a ski house in VT. If I know for sure that K is going to open ASAP every year and stay open until the bitter end, that is a huge point in their favor. People make house buying decisions based on that kind of reputation, not to mention season pass purchases.

If they're not going to push for maximum season length, well, they're just another big resort without any real product differentiation. Which is fine, we would get used to it... but like Riv said it's confusing that they put all that work into The Walkway and then missed a pretty slam dunk opportunity to show off. That plus the lack of communication* (compared to the Abasins and Lovelands of the world) doesn't make them look like they know/care that the eyes of the East are on them every fall.

*Nothing personal against Spin, who seems like a nice enough guy, but K is really bad at nourishing the stoke compared to the other 'long season' type places.

 

[snowmonster]

It's pretty simple from where I stand: Sunday River under-promised and over-delivered. Going into last week, K had all the advantages in terms of natural snow and snowmaking windows. K also had a packed down base and a new walkway to show off. All SR had was snow guns in place and the willingness to go for it. In the end, the latter is all you need and, as a customer, that's what you want.

 

[Johnskiismore]

It's pretty simple from where I stand: Sunday River under-promised and over-delivered. Going into last week, K had all the advantages in terms of natural snow and snowmaking windows. K also had a packed down base and a new walkway to show off. All SR had was snow guns in place and the willingness to go for it. In the end, the latter is all you need and, as a customer, that's what you want.

Amen

 

[ski_resort_observer]

On kmart's skier visits numbers I don't think it's decades but they did string together a bunch of, 1-1,2m visit seasons before the A41 passes killed the golden goose. . A similar(%) drop in skier visits during the same time period happened at the other big ASC resort in Vermont, Mt Snow. The A41 pass program did help SR, the Loaf I don't think anything can help them regarding skier visits. It will always be a skiers mountain bringing up the rear for CNLstable of resorts, revenue/profitwise.

Personally I don't get too riled up over an early opening by one or a few resorts. In the 90's it was the Bush vs kmart as far as pumping out some marketing snow, grab some employees to ski the hundred or so feet of slop, get on TV.

In the first few years of the 21C it was Rod Taylor down in little old Woodbury Mt who grabbed the titles while the big boys played cat and mouse with each other up north. I know some disrespect this but skiing is skiing. Now the CNL/Boyne partnership is making a change in the mentality of SR.

I respect SR for pulling it off and obviously alot of folks enjoyed the results. As mentioned they will probably not last thru the upcoming warm and wet weather this week but they they exceeded expectations with their customer base and that is just smart business which in this case pays off to the tune of about 500,000 skier visits per season.

 

[bigbob]

Well Tom, I just got back from Sunday River. I Asked Darcy if she had gotten her beer yet, she said no, but it was going to be a full case! She was riding up the chair with a reporter from WCSH 6 out of Portland. Video should be on tonight's news and I heard another station was going to interview her later in the day.
Were the conditions superb, hey, it's October, and they had 2 trails open. I did not here any complaints! I ended up running into an old customer of mine and skiing 6 runs with him. Also took a ride up the chair with a Mnt Ops guy, speaking of those types. Very positive about opening for the pass holders and getting the early season stoke going. He pointed out some less than ideal conditions and stated the people out today could care less about that, as long as they were open and trying to please their customer base. They employees in the base lodge were all happy to be back at work also. BTW, checked my ski bases and no addition gouges, they were my rock skis.
I am sure you can remember last seasons start being difficult. I remember Killington being mobbed however, almost too crowded. If you want to grow your visits numbers, listen to your core customers and run with it! Don't be shy, you are supposed to be communicating with us! Boyne is not bashful about getting open early.

 

[bigbob]

Yesterday was not opening day. You are talking 18+ hours of snowmaking from after they opened to the time that they opened once again the following day, yesterday.

Sunday River had everyone totally in the dark for quite some time, no communication at all. No cams, didn't say anything when snowmaking got underway Thursday evening, didn't say anything Friday about snowmaking being underway, and didn't announce an opening prior to opening. They announced that they were open after they had already been open a while.

Killington told us when the guns got turned on early Monday morning, they told us when the guns got turned on again, they told us in advance they needed 72 hours of snowmaking to open, they told us "Our goal for kicking off the season remains the same: We are committed to open as early as possible for our guests with a sustainable quality product. “It is important for us to be open as early as reasonably possible, as it is a critical element in our overall operating plan,” Temple says. A quality product is defined as one that allows for snowmaking mounds to “dry and cure” for a period of time before grooming and opening."

All week long, before they got this day and a half window of snowmaking, they have communicated on Facebook, Twitter and it was posted on Kzone that they were NOT PLANNING TO OPEN this weekend, as they already knew they weren't going to be able to run a sustainable operation.

They have communicated several other times throughout the summer and fall that they were going to open when they could get open and stay open, ect...

Skippy, I rode the lift today with a Sunday River employee. He said when he came to work last week and saw a snow flake flutter down he knew the opening was coming soon. He did not know that they were planning to open Friday since they were so temperature dependant on having a long enough window to get enough base down so they could open. The difference is they ran with the ball, pulled it off, and, get this, they opened!

 

[DJAK]

Having messaged "first to open" scenarios at both of these resorts within the last decade and knowing the ops and ownership groups within each, my thoughts can be summed up with two words.

Epic Thread.

Had to post in it somehow.

 

[Newpylong]

We absolutely are comparing Apples to Apples. It's apparent you haven't skied Sunday River very much. In my opinion Upper T2 and Sunday Punch are very comparable to having Rime and Reason open - both length-wise and vertical. The only statistical advantage Killington would have is Great Northern to get down there - but that should be thrown out of the comparison because it's a sh!t trail and you would have needed to hike back out to ski it again.

While we're comparing, I was at Sumday Bigger yesterday and the conditions were considerably better than the perception/assumptions I've been reading here. It was noticably better than both of their last Holloween openings.

Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.

I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.

If Killington is going to open with an entire trail pod, and not just 1/2 of 1 trail like SR, then stay open continuously, then people should be very happy. That is an opening. Sunday River is letting people get some yes, but I dont think its exactly comparing apples to apples here.

Just getting snow down onto Great Northern to the North Ridge area, as I mentioned before, probably takes more alone than SR had to blow on T2 to get open, then add the remaining North Ridge trails, and yeah, theyre going to need some more time and more snow than they got. I dont know of many ski areas that can open with just a foot of natural on bare ground.

If they had opened with just Great Northern or some variation just to the catwalk everyone would have been just as pissed. And if K opens in a week and stays open till late April or May, they would smoke SR in terms of total days open if you ask me.

 

[SkiFanE]

Was there today. Don't care about who opened first, all I know is that it was awesome. Main parts of trail were great, ice chunks and a couple small gulley's were only obstacles on T2, Sunday Punch opened with a little hop over the snow making pipes - great run. By 1pm things had started softening up perfectly, Sunday Punch had started to form soft bumps, snow got a little dirtier near lift. I didn't run over any rocks. Not bad download lines either.

I <3 SR

 

[UVSHTSTRM]

Riv, relax, everyone here knows your definition of quality is much different than most. Your website has plenty of evidence of this.

I still cant blame Killington for not opening. Im sure they remember last years sting when November was warm as hell and noone was really all that open until December. That couldnt have been profitable.

If Killington is going to open with an entire trail pod, and not just 1/2 of 1 trail like SR, then stay open continuously, then people should be very happy. That is an opening. Sunday River is letting people get some yes, but I dont think its exactly comparing apples to apples here.

Just getting snow down onto Great Northern to the North Ridge area, as I mentioned before, probably takes more alone than SR had to blow on T2 to get open, then add the remaining North Ridge trails, and yeah, theyre going to need some more time and more snow than they got. I dont know of many ski areas that can open with just a foot of natural on bare ground.

If they had opened with just Great Northern or some variation just to the catwalk everyone would have been just as pissed. And if K opens in a week and stays open till late April or May, they would smoke SR in terms of total days open if you ask me.

Explain to me how not opening this week for Killington and opening this week for Sunday River effects what happens in late April? Can't be money, they both spent the same time blowing snow, can't be because of the upcoming weather, both will be affected. The only difference i see is they both wasted money on early season snow that could melt/wash away in the coming weeks.....of course one chose to put the snow to use, while the other is sitting on it an praying that the warm ground, warm air temps, and showers to come doesn't dimish it to much.

Oh one more thing, you are right that Sunday River won't be open in late April or early May, but not because anything that happend this week. It's because, in case you haven't noticed, SR early SL late.

 

[Brewbeer]

K'ton is NOT the place it used to be. I can remember skiing AND Mtn biking off the old K peak double on Columbus day, on several occasions. Not any more.

 

[Geoff]

I know for a while (90's era) they did a couple million plus seasons, but Im no encylopedia.

POWDR doesn't report skier visit numbers at Killington but they still claim the #1 slot. Okemo does ~610,000 to 630,000 so you have to figure Killington is a little higher. What you can do is look at the Access Road traffic counter maintained by the state. It's down 30% since POWDR took over. If Killington is 625,000 to 650,000 now, even the worst of the ASC years were around a million.

As a property owner in town, a 30% decline is bad for me. As a season pass holder, I certainly enjoy the less crowded mountain. I think POWDR is incompentent at marketing their only eastern resort and I think it's a shame that this incompetence is screwing a lot of property owners in the region including the Texas boys who own all the developable land at the bottom of the hill. With a crashed real estate market and downright lousy prospects for reliable midweek rental income, nobody is going to buy into the resort at the premium prices a developer would command for slopeside housing. If I were the H.L. Hunt oil money trust fund money guys, I'd be pissed as hell at the Utards from POWDR who trashed my investment.