Killington Skye Peak trails question for SpinmasterK

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

:dunce:

Highway Star for Killington President :lol:

hell yeah...he will fix all of Killingtons problems:idea::dunce:

 

[Beartrap]

I guess this is why I don't ski there anymore. Must be the same marketing firm as Microsoft. Confuse the people and take all of there money....

Just my 2 cents

 

[2knees]

someone ask johhny the bartending jibber why killington is answering questions here.

 

[deadheadskier]

I guess this is why I don't ski there anymore. Must be the same marketing firm as Microsoft. Confuse the people and take all of there money....

Just my 2 cents

fight the man bro, fight the man


:lol:

 

[Highway Star]

someone ask johhny the bartending jibber why killington is answering questions here.

I can answer that one....

Killington marketing is only willing or able to answer softball style questions which they can craft a semi-plausible answer for. Thus I started out this thread with softball questions regarding the trails and Tom was willing to answer them. Keep in mind we have been discussing the new trail layout over at K-zone for over a week, with no official word from Killlington. So it was important for Tom to flow out some information to everyone, and they also got the trail map published.

However, when you start asking them pointed, hardball questions, or calling them out on certain decisions, they basicly fall apart. This is not only Tom and Killington marketing, but all the way up to Nyberg him self. Several of my friends up at Killington have talked to Nyberg in person, and when pressed about decisions, like closing early, he simply can't provide a plausable answer other than, well, greed, and not wanting to spend the money. It's like they just simply don't want to spend the money, on almost anything, unless it's got a surefire payoff, or something embarassing and badly in need of replacement (like the skye peak quad). They don't have a clue about their customer base, their long term patrons, and the Killington culture.

Anyway, the Ask-Killington forum on K-zone fell apart because they were under fire from a constant barrage of valid, hardball questions about all manner of things on the mountain. Go look at it yourself.....

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=12

Personally, I think Tom Horrocks is a good guy, and there are other good people working for the mountain. However, I'm not a fan of Nyberg, POWDR and whomever is perpetrating these decisions!

The net result? A continued decrease in skier visits, a constant recession in the region, soft real estate. POWDR, of course, will cut to the bone and keep Killington itself profitable no matter what. Base Village??? Not a chance - the town will fight it tooth and nail, and with the glut of cheap real estate flooding the market it will be very difficult to turn a profit. Even prior to the SP/POWDR buyout, other builders/developers have looked at the project and run away in a hurry.....one in particular ended up at Loon. Have you checked how many Killington Grand quartershares and other property are for sale right now? It's like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

I'm not the only one who feels this way, I assure you. Skiers at Killington have long memories and hold grudges. It's going to be an interesting, if not long, season.

 

[deadheadskier]

I can answer that one....

Several of my friends up at Killington have talked to Nyberg in person, and when pressed about decisions, like closing early, he simply can't provide a plausable answer other than, well, greed, and not wanting to spend the money. It's like they just simply don't want to spend the money, on almost anything, unless it's got a surefire payoff

hmmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar. What is the phrase I'm looking for....oh yeah, running a business :idea:

I can completely understand the frustrations of many with the limited hours for certain services and the changing of the opening and closing date, but at the end the day, the name of the game in business is to make as much money as possible. Apparently they think their business model is the right way to do it.

 

[tjf67]

I can answer that one....

Killington marketing is only willing or able to answer softball style questions which they can craft a semi-plausible answer for. Thus I started out this thread with softball questions regarding the trails and Tom was willing to answer them. Keep in mind we have been discussing the new trail layout over at K-zone for over a week, with no official word from Killlington. So it was important for Tom to flow out some information to everyone, and they also got the trail map published.

However, when you start asking them pointed, hardball questions, or calling them out on certain decisions, they basicly fall apart. This is not only Tom and Killington marketing, but all the way up to Nyberg him self. Several of my friends up at Killington have talked to Nyberg in person, and when pressed about decisions, like closing early, he simply can't provide a plausable answer other than, well, greed, and not wanting to spend the money. It's like they just simply don't want to spend the money, on almost anything, unless it's got a surefire payoff, or something embarassing and badly in need of replacement (like the skye peak quad). They don't have a clue about their customer base, their long term patrons, and the Killington culture.

Anyway, the Ask-Killington forum on K-zone fell apart because they were under fire from a constant barrage of valid, hardball questions about all manner of things on the mountain. Go look at it yourself.....

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=12

Personally, I think Tom Horrocks is a good guy, and there are other good people working for the mountain. However, Nyberg, POWDR and whomever is perpetrating these decisions is indeed the scum of the earth, and what ever other negative things you would like to say about them, or their mothers.....!

The net result? A continued decrease in skier visits, a constant recession in the region, soft real estate. POWDR, of course, will cut to the bone and keep Killington itself profitable no matter what. Base Village??? Not a chance - the town will fight it tooth and nail, and with the glut of cheap real estate flooding the market it will be very difficult to turn a profit. Even prior to the SP/POWDR buyout, other builders/developers have looked at the project and run away in a hurry.....one in particular ended up at Loon. Have you checked how many Killington Grand quartershares and other property are for sale right now? It's like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

I'm not the only one who feels this way, I assure you. Skiers at Killington have long memories and hold grudges. It's going to be an interesting, if not long, season.

Star do you own anything? Are you in business for yourself?

I love it how so many people have answers as to why things are not working.
We need more doers and less talkers.

 

[highpeaksdrifter]

hmmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar. What is the phrase I'm looking for....oh yeah, running a business :idea:

I can completely understand the frustrations of many with the limited hours for certain services and the changing of the opening and closing date, but at the end the day, the name of the game in business is to make as much money as possible. Apparently they think their business model is the right way to do it.

Star do you own anything? Are you in business for yourself?

I love it how so many people have answers as to why things are not working.
We need more doers and less talkers.

No shit, if he doesn't like the way the place is run then go someplace else. I hate it when people whine about any business, but still keep patronizing the place.

 

[Geoff]

I can answer that one....

Killington marketing is only willing or able to answer softball style questions which they can craft a semi-plausible answer for. Thus I started out this thread with softball questions regarding the trails and Tom was willing to answer them. Keep in mind we have been discussing the new trail layout over at K-zone for over a week, with no official word from Killlington. So it was important for Tom to flow out some information to everyone, and they also got the trail map published.

However, when you start asking them pointed, hardball questions, or calling them out on certain decisions, they basicly fall apart. This is not only Tom and Killington marketing, but all the way up to Nyberg him self. Several of my friends up at Killington have talked to Nyberg in person, and when pressed about decisions, like closing early, he simply can't provide a plausable answer other than, well, greed, and not wanting to spend the money. It's like they just simply don't want to spend the money, on almost anything, unless it's got a surefire payoff, or something embarassing and badly in need of replacement (like the skye peak quad). They don't have a clue about their customer base, their long term patrons, and the Killington culture.

Anyway, the Ask-Killington forum on K-zone fell apart because they were under fire from a constant barrage of valid, hardball questions about all manner of things on the mountain. Go look at it yourself.....

http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=12

Personally, I think Tom Horrocks is a good guy, and there are other good people working for the mountain. However, Nyberg, POWDR and whomever is perpetrating these decisions is indeed the scum of the earth, and what ever other negative things you would like to say about them, or their mothers.....!

The net result? A continued decrease in skier visits, a constant recession in the region, soft real estate. POWDR, of course, will cut to the bone and keep Killington itself profitable no matter what. Base Village??? Not a chance - the town will fight it tooth and nail, and with the glut of cheap real estate flooding the market it will be very difficult to turn a profit. Even prior to the SP/POWDR buyout, other builders/developers have looked at the project and run away in a hurry.....one in particular ended up at Loon. Have you checked how many Killington Grand quartershares and other property are for sale right now? It's like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

I'm not the only one who feels this way, I assure you. Skiers at Killington have long memories and hold grudges. It's going to be an interesting, if not long, season.

I don't think it's quite as bad as all that.

Basically, POWDR started off with a sequence of public relations debacles. Layoffs days after they had said publicly that the weren't going to change much the first year. Reduced operations schedules for Pico and the Skyeship that crushed property values of some of the most expensive housing in town since they were no longer 7-day ski-in/ski-out. The announced trimming of 2 months off the traditional Killington ski season. Jacked up kid prices. Killing ski club early season voucher bulk buy programs. By the time the lifts spun mid-November, the town and much of their long-time customer base was pissed off at them about one thing or another.

Once the lifts spun, it really was a better product. Weekends were a delight with far fewer people on the hill. Until they shut the resort weeks early with edge-to-edge cover, I'd say most things were better than before.

Fast-forward 10 months. The Skyeship is back to a 7-day operating schedule. The angst over the layoffs has mostly died down. Ski club discount programs are back with a 4-day reloadable ticket at a competitive price. Pretty much the only issues that haven't been corrected are the kid program prices and the shortened season. They're now waffling about the season length where last year it very much looked like somebody put the dates on a spreadsheet and the business marched to those dates until it was too late to extend the closing date by very much.

I have little opinion about the trail closings. I'll ski lower Skyelark instead of Bittersweet to get back to KBL from Needles Eye. I'll gladly ride the Skye Peak Express and ski something interesting to get out of Bear instead a very boring Cruise Control. It's not like I go out of my way to ski Bittersweet headwall.

 

[Highway Star]

hmmmm, this sounds vaguely familiar. What is the phrase I'm looking for....oh yeah, running a business :idea:

I can completely understand the frustrations of many with the limited hours for certain services and the changing of the opening and closing date, but at the end the day, the name of the game in business is to make as much money as possible. Apparently they think their business model is the right way to do it.

And evidently, they are making a tidy profit at the mountian, but are losing out overall. POWDR's business model keeps them profitable, but their customer and the local community tends to hate them. Not just at Killington, but at Mt. Bachelor too. Assuming the long term game for SP Land is to be able to develop a base village and profit from it, they have selected the wrong business partner.

POWDR is simply milking Killington for all it's worth....there's a big difference between positively growing a good business and making a very good profit off it (old Killington), than there is taking a 50 year old business and running it like a cash cow, which is what POWDR is doing with the new Killington. John Cummings of POWDR follows after his father in his business practices.

And no, making as much money as possible is not the only and primary goal for many businesses.

And many people have left Killington, or are at least spending less money with them this year.

 

[Highway Star]

I don't think it's quite as bad as all that.

Basically, POWDR started off with a sequence of public relations debacles. Layoffs days after they had said publicly that the weren't going to change much the first year. Reduced operations schedules for Pico and the Skyeship that crushed property values of some of the most expensive housing in town since they were no longer 7-day ski-in/ski-out. The announced trimming of 2 months off the traditional Killington ski season. Jacked up kid prices. Killing ski club early season voucher bulk buy programs. By the time the lifts spun mid-November, the town and much of their long-time customer base was pissed off at them about one thing or another.

Once the lifts spun, it really was a better product. Weekends were a delight with far fewer people on the hill. Until they shut the resort weeks early with edge-to-edge cover, I'd say most things were better than before.

Fast-forward 10 months. The Skyeship is back to a 7-day operating schedule. The angst over the layoffs has mostly died down. Ski club discount programs are back with a 4-day reloadable ticket at a competitive price. Pretty much the only issues that haven't been corrected are the kid program prices and the shortened season. They're now waffling about the season length where last year it very much looked like somebody put the dates on a spreadsheet and the business marched to those dates until it was too late to extend the closing date by very much.

I have little opinion about the trail closings. I'll ski lower Skyelark instead of Bittersweet to get back to KBL from Needles Eye. I'll gladly ride the Skye Peak Express and ski something interesting to get out of Bear instead a very boring Cruise Control. It's not like I go out of my way to ski Bittersweet headwall.

I think you'll find that many people have a beef with the new Killington over several things....

- Pass prices
- Shortened season
- Reduced services
- Reduced lift ops
- Poor grooming
- Questionable weather related closures
- Slow recovery after freeze/thaw
- Kids program pricing
- Not communicating well
- Appearing appallingly greedy at every turn
- Stalling on the interconnect
- Closing Pico 2 days a week (and a very short season there)
- Claiming to be the king of spring
- Destroying the BMMC scene
- Grooming OL too much
- Not making snow on devils fiddle, then removing the chair
- Leaving a skating rink on lower Ovation
- No poaching policy
- No hiking policy
- Reduced skier visits and business traffic
- Almost no advertising
- Extremely soft real estate market
- Trying to build a base village that isn't wanted

...and there's probably some more.....shall I go on?

 

[deadheadskier]

And no, making as much money as possible is not the only and primary goal for many businesses.

Name me one non-cooperative or state owned area where making as much money as possible wasn't their greatest priority?

I've worked at three ski areas, two in senior management capacities. The senior management positions were at a small individually held area and an Intrawest resort. I can tell you that the bottom line was KING. Outside of my ski area experience I've worked at a number of hotels in senior management positions and again, the bottom line was KING. Weekly managers meeting were broken down in focus as such: 10% guest satisfaction, 10% staffing and HR concerns and 80% MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. In the Money conversations, 80% of the talk was on controlling costs and 20% driving revenue. As Hank Theiss would preach (now the President of Durango Mountain Resort) For every dollar we bring in, if we do everything right we'll make a dime. For every dollar we save, we get to keep the whole dollar.

You are seriously delusional if you don't think that making money is hands down the number one priority for ALL privately or share holder held hospitality businesses.

 

[Highway Star]

Name me one non-cooperative or state owned area where making as much money as possible wasn't their greatest priority?

I've worked at three ski areas, two in senior management capacities. The senior management positions were at a small individually held area and an Intrawest resort. I can tell you that the bottom line was KING. Outside of my ski area experience I've worked at a number of hotels in senior management positions and again, the bottom line was KING. Weekly managers meeting were broken down in focus as such: 10% guest satisfaction, 10% staffing and HR concerns and 80% MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. In the Money conversations, 80% of the talk was on controlling costs and 20% driving revenue. As Hank Theiss would preach (now the President of Durango Mountain Resort) For every dollar we bring in, if we do everything right we'll make a dime. For every dollar we save, we get to keep the whole dollar.

You are seriously delusional if you don't think that making money is hands down the number one priority for ALL privately or share holder held hospitality businesses.

I never made that statement, and you're more than entitled to you own opinion. In fact, I would agree that making money is the number one priority for the vast majority of independant (private or shareholder owned), for-profit companies, inclusive of hospitality businesses.

However, the majority of them are also savvy enough to show a public face that says that guest satisfaction and the visitor's experience is the highest priority...so people will come there to, duh, spend money. And that should be evidenced by the quality of the guest experience. Stowe, Stratton and Okemo are masters at this. Killington is not. Infact, almost everything POWDR does at Killington says that they are in it purely for the money, not the love of the sport or to please their customers.

 

[deadheadskier]

And no, making as much money as possible is not the only and primary goal for many businesses.

um, yes you did make that statement

 

[Highway Star]

um, yes you did make that statement

Yes, and I'll make it again, and yes, it's still correct:

And no, making as much money as possible is not the only and primary goal for many businesses.

But that is not the statement you claimed that I made.

"Making is much money as possible" is NOT the same thing as making enough profit to keep a business sustainable, grow the business and make it a viable investment or cash flow source. Companies that try to make as much money as possible, at the sacrifice of everything else, are inherently unbalanced and tend to not succeed in the long run, or are scourge on human civilization. IMHO.

 

[Geoff]

Let's look at these one at a time.

Pass prices
Adult season pass prices are lower than they were 7 years ago. Even adjusted to a 5 month season rather than a 7 month season, the pass is still lower than when Preston Smith owned the place. The cheap season passes created massive overcrowding on weekends and chased away the high yield day ticket business. Look how empty it was last winter after the bargain hunters left. It will take several years for the word to get out that Killington is a sane place to ski on weekends.

Shortened season
No argument here. Killington should have opened a week earlier. It's inexcusable what they did on April 20th. I can deal with no Superstar glacier but the normal winter base can usually last into the first or second week of May with only a small amount of snow movement by the grooming equipment. Win Smith got Spring Fling open with grooming equipment. It's a small expense and valuable PR. It's also the right thing to do.

Reduced services
Services were not reduced on weekends and holidays and that's when it matters. Few midweekers particularly care about a cafeteria at KBL or Bear since they're regulars who know better than to eat Killington food.

Reduced lift ops
Lift ops were not reduced on weekends and holidays and that's when it matters. The Skyship is on a 7-day schedule next year so you can ski the whole mountain 7 days per week.

Poor grooming
Bullshit. It was no better or worse than in previous years.

Questionable weather related closures
You aren't the one making that call. It's a safety issue.

Slow recovery after freeze/thaw
That was indeed a fallout of the staff cutbacks and lean midweek operation. An ice storm on Wednesday would still see lifts not dug out on Saturday morning. I have no sense for exactly what happened on those weekends where they had nothing but Snowdon going. We had an unusually large number of ice storms last winter. I've seen Killington be equally slow to dig out from other events in other years. As they add high speed lifts, it's only going to get worse.

Kids program pricing
You have to look at each of the products and programs. I personally don't care if they price gouge on kiddie care. I think it's self-centered for parents to dump their children in daycare to go skiing for the day. My close friends with children at Killington didn't do it that way. They skied with their kids and hung out in the base lodge feeding them quarters for video games when the kids didn't want to ski. I think junior season passes and junior day ticket prices are too high. They should be tiered based on age and any kid in elementary school should be skiing cheaply. That's how you build the sport. A high school kid should be paying the same as a college student. The hopefuls program is a little bit expensive but not rediculous.

Not communicating well
Duh. That was their absolute worst fault in their first year.

Appearing appallingly greedy at every turn
It's a business. That's why they exist. Deal with it.

Stalling on the interconnect
POWDR had nothing to do with any interconnect proposals. With 650K skier visits, it would be financial suicide to add yet more sprawl to an already sprawling resort. In a lean year, they'd lose their shirts.

Closing Pico 2 days a week (and a very short season there)
It's actually a miracle they didn't shut it completely. Pico under ASC ownership always had a very short season.

Claiming to be the king of spring
That moron is now making more of a mess in Bend, Oregon. Let's see what the new Marketing VP does.

Destroying the BMMC scene
I had no problem partying there. It didn't require mensa qualifications to figure out how to get alcohol up onto the snow. BMMC was originally put in place to market Killington spring skiing. Since there ain't none, I don't quite understand why Killington spent money on the Smithereens last March. Moving it to the 1st weekend in April is a small step in the right direction. It was historically the 2nd weekend in April and got preempted by that baggy pants and backwards baseball cap kiddie event that nobody goes to. I question their priorities.

Grooming OL too much
I've been skiing Killington since OL was first cut. This is a very old complaint that I first heard 25 years ago. When OL is rock-hard, they groom it or resurface it. In the 1980's, Bear was king since it was the only part of the mountain with uphill capacity. In the 1990's, Killington moved the focus of the mountain from Bear to main mountain and stopped resurfacing OL as frequently. Since then, it's been 50% groomed much of the time. Deal with it.

Not making snow on devils fiddle, then removing the chair
Bear has too much uphill capacity. With a high speed lift, there simply aren't enough acres for all the skier traffic if they ran the Fiddle Quad. I think they made the correct decision. I'd like them to blow a base on Fiddle as part of their January finishing trail rollout. It can be an ungroomed natural snow trail afterwards. The new lift may change the focus of the mountain back towards Bear and give them more incentive to get Fiddle running. They do need the acres to spread out the people.

Leaving a skating rink on lower Ovation
Killington obviously had a fixed snowmaking budget and decided Ovation wasn't a priority. It was superb on opening day. I ripped off 10 laps on it early. With all the ice storms, I can understand why they decided to resurface elsewhere.

No poaching policy
I fully support their policy. If the ski patrol puts a rope across a trail, you get your pass pulled for skiing it. This is a safety call by the ski patrol. If you want to poach, you knew the rules ahead of time. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

No hiking policy
That was basically for one weekend when they were up on the mountain making snow and running grooming equipment. I don't blame them at all for trying to discourage people from hiking that weekend. I hiked a lot the last couple of weeks. I brought ski patrollers with me a few times after telling them how good it was. I'm not aware of a blanket no-hiking policy.

Reduced skier visits and business traffic
I thought the light traffic on weekends was great. The data I've gotten for condo rentals was that it was a good year. I think that for the most part, the people who didn't show up were the bargain hunters who didn't spend much money on the access road.

Almost no advertising
Extremely soft real estate market
That is a nationwide problem. You can't possibly blame that on Killington.

Trying to build a base village that isn't wanted
First, you are confusing POWDR with SP Land. SP Land wants to build whatever they can unload quickly and easily to get their money out. The town wants a commercial center and pedestrian area that is the new center of the town and would be a 4-season attraction along the lines of a Whistler. The SP Land proposal that was slaughtered by anybody and everybody did not achieve that goal. The poor relationship between POWDR and the town also spilled over to the SP Land relationship with the town since the town correctly insists that the two corporations are linked in this project.

...and there's probably some more.....shall I go on?
No. You are armchair quarterbacking somebody else's business. I thought their midwinter weekend/holiday product was much better than the ASC bad years. I think their family and never-never pricing is bad for the sport. I think they should run the lifts in the spring. Other'n that, what they're doing is OK by me.

 

[snoseek]

Geoff for the win.......


Anyway I'm still trying to figure out why HS is so determined to have Killington increase to maybe 1 million visitoers. It will be a shit show-no way around it. Less people is better for you the skier, I do feel for any property owners that may be taking a hit. I want my local area to be economicaly viable-nothing more. The less people the better. "Yeah breck and Keystone are where it's at-go there when it snows, you'll have a blast"

Sounds to me like Killington is doing better now than ever.


Edit-there are things that would piss me off to no end like less Pico and a shorter season. That just sucks. Everthing else is pretty minor.

 

[RootDKJ]

I thought I'd give an "average Joe" point of view on HS's points. I usually ski K about 10 days a year. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Overall, I've been very happy skiing there.

- Pass prices - Going up almost everywhere...
- Shortened season - My workload tipples in April anyway, no time to ski then
- Reduced services - pack my own lunch anyway
- Reduced lift ops - seems like they learned a lesson and will improve this year
- Poor grooming - same everywhere
- Questionable weather related closures - hadn't noticed
- Slow recovery after freeze/thaw - I was there last year during one of the Jan ice storms. K1 was iced over and Skyship had no power. I'm sorry, but it's inexcusable not to be able to have emergancy power available on your two main lifts to the top. Buy a generator, slap it on a trailer. Pop some quick connects into a transfer switch and you'll be able to run the lift when commercial power fails If you don't want to deal with the maintenance requirements then rent one for the season. When freezing rain happens, why not have one or two employees work an overnight shift and spin the lift once every few hours?
- Kids program pricing - don't have kids
- Not communicating well - looks like they learned a lesson here also and we have a new blog this year.
- Appearing appallingly greedy at every turn - see thread on Verizon
- Stalling on the interconnect - waste of money, doesn't affect me at all
- Closing Pico 2 days a week (and a very short season there) - doesn't affect me
- Claiming to be the king of spring - K is the only company to use deceptive advertising?
- Destroying the BMMC scene - I became an expert on smuggling booze in to a dry dorm in college. I'm sure if I went, I wouldn't have a problem.
- Grooming OL too much - don't care
- Not making snow on devils fiddle, then removing the chair - don't care
- Leaving a skating rink on lower Ovation - don't care
- No poaching policy - saves money for other expenses
- No hiking policy - saves money for other expenses
- Reduced skier visits and business traffic - no complaints from me
- Almost no advertising - that's ok with me also
- Extremely soft real estate market - so go buy something cheap...
- Trying to build a base village that isn't wanted - dumb idea anyway

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Geoff for mayor of Killington...then he can get free Gombay smashes.and the best spot for spring tailgaiting...JEA!!!

 

[Geoff]

Geoff for the win.......
There's no win possible here.

Anyway I'm still trying to figure out why HS is so determined to have Killington increase to maybe 1 million visitoers. It will be a shit show-no way around it.

I think he's looking at this the wrong way. What POWDR wants to do is increase the number of high yield skier visits. They killed the discount programs like cheap season passes. It looks like the ski club discount program they're putting in this year will be a direct-to-lift pass with your photo on it. That kills the brisk secondary market that always existed for vouchers. You can get a discount but you have to be proactive enough about it to spend the $30.00 to join a ski club and then shell out $200-ish bucks to put 4 days on your club pass. I think that's a reasonable control on the discount program.

If you can attract 800K skier visits where the customers are all high yield, you can make enough profit to fund expansions like the Pico interconnect that further improve the experience at the resort. That ain't gonna happen if you take the mountain discount. I question the bad PR moves POWDR made in the last year but it's pretty clear that this is their strategy. In the short term, it means an uncrowded mountain. In the medium term, it funds the improvements that attract more skier visits.


Less people is better for you the skier, I do feel for any property owners that may be taking a hit.

On real estate:
If a $1050 season pass instead of a $350 season pass prevents you from skiing Killington, you're not a likely candidate to be buying a house or condo at KMart. Even if you pay cash for it, a moderate condo at Killington costs $10,000/year to run.

I have several close friends in the condo rental business and I know lots of owners with units in the rental pool. They didn't have a bad year. Even a cheap 2 bedroom condo at Killington goes for $300/night and those people are buying the expensive day tickets. That kind of customer finds Killington far more attractive with 650K skier visits than it was when it was flooded with cheap season pass people. It's not like day tickets went up. It's all the discounting that went away. If you're running a dollar draft bar on the Access Road, you might notice less business.


I want my local area to be economicaly viable-nothing more. The less people the better. "Yeah breck and Keystone are where it's at-go there when it snows, you'll have a blast"

Vail. Go there.

Killington is all about the superlatives. It's the biggest ski area in the east and by accident of geography, is going to get a lot of skier visits since it's drivable from metro-Boston, Hartford, and metro-NYC. With a 4000 foot peak, a good water supply for snowmaking, and 250" of natural, it's also the only place where May skiing really makes commercial sense.

Sounds to me like Killington is doing better now than ever.

As long as they're running the lifts, that's mostly true. I still say that junior pricing and never-never introduction to skiing packages should be less expensive since that's vital for the continued health of the ski business. As the biggest, Killington has an industry obligation to hook 'em early. There are some minor annoyances but they really are minor unless it's September and you have a fierce ski Jones going. I just got back from making turns in Chile so I don't have that problem.


Edit-there are things that would piss me off to no end like less Pico and a shorter season. That just sucks. Everthing else is pretty minor.

Pico went under in the late-1990's. ASC bought the place with future expansion in mind. I doubt it does any better than break even and that's only possible by using Killington's grooming fleet and administrative services. From where I sit, less Pico is better than no Pico at all and the skiing surface there is better since it's not getting used two days per week. POWDR has a labor supply problem and Pico on a 5-day schedule makes their life a lot easier.

I think it's pretty clear that my issue is the shorter season. I can deal with the death of the October white ribbon of death though I think Killington should bring it back when they replace a Snowdon lift since you can then upload/download on Snowdon and put the white ribbon on Rime under the Glades/Northridge triple. That's huge marketing PR that Killington isn't getting now. You don't get every flatlands weather dude reporting that Killington is open in October and the news babe shuddering that she's not yet ready for winter. That kind of publicity is very valuable and far exceeds the cost of making the snow. Preston Smith knew that and used it to build the biggest ski area in the east. It should be possible most years to run at least one lift at Killington well into May without doing one bit of extra snowmaking. I think most people would accept a "sunny days only" and/or "Friday/Saturday/Sunday" schedule in May. I've skied there for decades in May and it's dead midweek and deserted on weekends if the weather is bad. Killington has enough full time staff and local weekend part time help to run the K1, stock a day ticket kiosk, fire up a grill on the deck, and supply a bartender. That's more or less what Win Smith did at Sugarbush this year. It's valuable marketing. Win greeted us personally and I'm sure he ended up getting some Killington people to move 40 miles up the road. Once you switch mountains, you rarely switch back.

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