Late October Snowmaking?

[snowman]

Indeed. This thread has it all, including Highway Star's first official ski-off challenge on AZ. Wow. We need snow. :roll:

It's possible that he's just sour that I beat him in the poll...even after he signed in and voted for himself with all 3 of his identities... :lol:

 

[Greg]

Well, this post officially puts us in the top 10 so I'm off to bed. 'Night you big bunch of internet tough guys...

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I'll hit you up for intel at the end of Nov. In the meantime, could you please explain the first 10 pages of this (when we were talking about the actual subject at hand) to Highwaystar. I don't have the patience to post (for the 30th time in 2 months) that snow gets made exponentially faster at an RH weighted 15 vs. 25F. Sigh.

Why, of course I could!

Highwaystar... listen up.

Most snowguns on the market are designed with a maximum startup temperature of 28 degrees wet bulb. Wet bulb, of course, is a function of the dry bulb temp and the RH. It's 28, instead of 32 because of a concept called "Head of Fusion," which dictates that it takes 144btu of energy to freeze a sufficiently nucleated particle of water. That 144btu causes a temperature rise of 4 degrees, which is why the water must be cooled to at least 28 degrees before it will freeze (and come to rest at 32, hence why people think 32 is the freezing point).

In order to get snow, water droplets have to have a nucleator. In fact, distilled water doesn't freeze until around -40 degrees F. Now... there are high temperature nucleators, low temp nucleators, and infinite variations in between. In any given droplet, you may have several different types of nucleators. The droplet will automatically form around the highest temp nucleator in the droplet. But sometimes, that nucleator is such that the droplet won't freeze until, say, 15 degrees. Others may freeze at 25. Still others not until 5 degrees.

I could continue to explain in depth for about 6 more pages. But I'll tie it all up nicely and more easily understood like this: the colder the temperature, the more water droplets freeze. With one gun at 25 degrees, for example, you're running 35gpm and might only be freezing 50% of the water droplets that come out of the gun (and your compressors are on full-blast), and then maybe 15% of those droplets will crack before fully freezing. At 15 degrees you're running 150gpm and you might freeze 80% of those droplets, with only 5% splitting. At 5 degrees, you're running 250gpm and maybe 97% of those droplets are freezing and you're not even using compressed air anymore.

And humidity dramatically affects production. Have a look at a psychrometric chart to learn more about RH's direct effects on wet bulb.

If you want more, just ask!

 

[snowman]

I'm an ex-racer, chump.

You also have no concept of a ski off....please visit K-zone for more details.

Regardless, you still haven't posted jack squat to back up your assertions about what it takes to open a ski area early.

Goooooolly. I'm in trouble now! What age division of Nastar was that exactly? I'm positive I can't compete with you so I'll just stay put over here and talk about the good old days with my former development squad Europa Cup buddies.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Major hijacking going on here .. Where is Marc? He needs to get in on this too ...

I know...what's he waiting for......

Actually the voice of reason in this thread are the AZers who have not chimed in........except Marc , of course.

I knew HS would challenge for a ski-off and the season hasn't started yet. I think there was a ski-off last year but I think HS went to the wrong part of the resort. This thread is a mere child when compared to the HS vs the world threads on EpicSki.

 

[snowman]

Why, of course I could!

Highwaystar... listen up.

Most snowguns on the market are designed with a maximum startup temperature of 28 degrees wet bulb. Wet bulb, of course, is a function of the dry bulb temp and the RH. It's 28, instead of 32 because of a concept called "Head of Fusion," which dictates that it takes 144btu of energy to freeze a sufficiently nucleated particle of water. That 144btu causes a temperature rise of 4 degrees, which is why the water must be cooled to at least 28 degrees before it will freeze (and come to rest at 32, hence why people think 32 is the freezing point).

In order to get snow, water droplets have to have a nucleator. In fact, distilled water doesn't freeze until around -40 degrees F. Now... there are high temperature nucleators, low temp nucleators, and infinite variations in between. In any given droplet, you may have several different types of nucleators. The droplet will automatically form around the highest temp nucleator in the droplet. But sometimes, that nucleator is such that the droplet won't freeze until, say, 15 degrees. Others may freeze at 25. Still others not until 5 degrees.

I could continue to explain in depth for about 6 more pages. But I'll tie it all up nicely and more easily understood like this: the colder the temperature, the more water droplets freeze. With one gun at 25 degrees, for example, you're running 35gpm and might only be freezing 50% of the water droplets that come out of the gun (and your compressors are on full-blast), and then maybe 15% of those droplets will crack before fully freezing. At 15 degrees you're running 150gpm and you might freeze 80% of those droplets, with only 5% splitting. At 5 degrees, you're running 250gpm and maybe 97% of those droplets are freezing and you're not even using compressed air anymore.

And humidity dramatically affects production. Have a look at a psychrometric chart to learn more about RH's direct effects on wet bulb.

If you want more, just ask!

You even taught me a fact or 2 with that one. My knowledge of snowmaking is mostly based on study of the actual product produced at every temperature and RH under the sun (and moon), rather than sitting in a classroom having what's really going on explained to me. Distilled water doesn't freeze until -40?? That immediately set me to thinking. Why isn't distilled water used for windsheild wash??

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I know...what's he waiting for......

Actually the voice of reason in this thread are the AZers who have not chimed in........except Marc , of course.

Guess that counts you out! :wink:

 

[wa-loaf]

Has a "ski-off" ever really even happened?

Is there a Chinese downhill involved?

 

[BushMogulMaster]

You even taught me a fact or 2 with that one. My knowledge of snowmaking is mostly based on study of the actual product produced at every temperature and RH under the sun (and moon), rather than sitting in a classroom having what's really going on explained to me. Distilled water doesn't freeze until -40?? That immediately set me to thinking. Why isn't distilled water used for windsheild wash??

Which is why I love this program. I'm doing both. It's explained to about the deepest level possible in the lecture, and then we head out for the lab and actually do it. Can't beat that.

Yeah, distilled water doesn't freeze until -40. I'll quote "More to a Plume than Meets the Sky," by John Gell, "Pure, distilled water in a sterile environment, for example, must be cooled to -40 F for freezing to occur. As we know, freezing does in fact occur above -40 as long as there is an 'impurity,' or nucleator present which is capable of initiating the freezing process."

What are the contents of normal windshield wash? It does sound like distilled water would be a logical component...

 

[snoseek]

Is there a Chinese downhill involved?

WTF is a chinese downhill?

 

[snoseek]

Which is why I love this program. I'm doing both. It's explained to about the deepest level possible in the lecture, and then we head out for the lab and actually do it. Can't beat that.

Yeah, distilled water doesn't freeze until -40. I'll quote "More to a Plume than Meets the Sky," by John Gell, "Pure, distilled water in a sterile environment, for example, must be cooled to -40 F for freezing to occur. As we know, freezing does in fact occur above -40 as long as there is an 'impurity,' or nucleator present which is capable of initiating the freezing process."

What are the contents of normal windshield wash? It does sound like distilled water would be a logical component...

mix it up with a little ammonia?

 

[wa-loaf]

WTF is a chinese downhill?

Go out and rent yourself Hot Dog The Movie.

 

[wa-loaf]

Go out and rent yourself Hot Dog The Movie.

My bad, you were actually quoting the movie. :smash:

 

[snoseek]

Go out and rent yourself Hot Dog The Movie.

I was trying to rip off my favorite line. That movie is truly a gem.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

BMM wrote:

I guess that leaves you out

I don't think so....I was very careful to make sure my posts in this thread did not contribute in anyway regarding the pissing contest this thread evolved to. Just humorous divergenses and other catchy thoughts.

BTW BMM...How is everyone out there taking the first game of the WS. The CR looked like former members of the developement squad, when is the actual team coming east? :lol:

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

I'm skiing out there Dec 3-10. I haven't decided yet if I'm going to fly out, or drive out and tow my 32 foot boat... so I can get angry at the stupid poor people working in the toll booths. :lol:

You have a 42 foot boat??? That's so cool..you're alright for a tool..lol

 

[snowman]

WTF is a chinese downhill?

I'll assume this is serious...but...hard to believe you've never heard of it! It's where you race down a trail versus numerous opponents. In a TRUE chinese downhill....you try to win by running your opponents off the trail etc...any means possible. When I raced we used to do the odd Chinese downhill (minus the dirty tactics) early in the morning (before others could get on the trail ahead of us) just to see who was running fastest. They were quite fun actually....you can slip stream opponents and slingshot etc....more like car racing than regular DH.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

It's up in the air. We were originally going to fly into Gunnison and ski at the Butte and around there, but we couldn't get 2 seats into Gunnison (really small plane). Got tickets for Denver, gonna maybe do something around there for a day or 2, then maybe do the Butte or something else for 3 or 4 days and come back and do 1 more day near Denver on the day before leaving. Probably just hit up whoever has the best product available. If anyone else is heading out. rental cars are dirt cheap on Expedia for that week right now. Just booked a full size for under $150 all in.

Whose we??? You mean you have a friend in real life???

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

WTF is a chinese downhill?

U'm always down for an Asian American downhill..they're mad steezy yo..every man for himself...

 

[snowman]

mix it up with a little ammonia?

I have no clue. I was on the impression it has antifreeze in it. It's not kept sterile for sure, so that shoots the idea of using it by itself out of the sky. I DO KNOW the chemicals in windshield wash are bad for the environment, which is why I asked. It can't be anything TOO special where it sells for 1/2 the price of Pepsi :smile: