Late October Snowmaking?

[BushMogulMaster]

It's not kept sterile for sure, so that shoots the idea of using it by itself out of the sky.

Very true. As soon as it came into contact with impurities, nucleators have already been introduced and it may freeze before it even makes it to the windshield, depending on wet bulb, of course.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

I don't think so....I was very careful to make sure my posts in this thread did not contribute in anyway regarding the pissing contest this thread evolved to. Just humorous divergenses and other catchy thoughts.

Well, at least you're good for something :wink:


So, SRO, how are things in the good 'ol MRV holding up?

 

[Highway Star]

Why, of course I could!

Highwaystar... listen up.

Most snowguns on the market are designed with a maximum startup temperature of 28 degrees wet bulb. Wet bulb, of course, is a function of the dry bulb temp and the RH. It's 28, instead of 32 because of a concept called "Head of Fusion," which dictates that it takes 144btu of energy to freeze a sufficiently nucleated particle of water. That 144btu causes a temperature rise of 4 degrees, which is why the water must be cooled to at least 28 degrees before it will freeze (and come to rest at 32, hence why people think 32 is the freezing point).

In order to get snow, water droplets have to have a nucleator. In fact, distilled water doesn't freeze until around -40 degrees F. Now... there are high temperature nucleators, low temp nucleators, and infinite variations in between. In any given droplet, you may have several different types of nucleators. The droplet will automatically form around the highest temp nucleator in the droplet. But sometimes, that nucleator is such that the droplet won't freeze until, say, 15 degrees. Others may freeze at 25. Still others not until 5 degrees.

I could continue to explain in depth for about 6 more pages. But I'll tie it all up nicely and more easily understood like this: the colder the temperature, the more water droplets freeze. With one gun at 25 degrees, for example, you're running 35gpm and might only be freezing 50% of the water droplets that come out of the gun (and your compressors are on full-blast), and then maybe 15% of those droplets will crack before fully freezing. At 15 degrees you're running 150gpm and you might freeze 80% of those droplets, with only 5% splitting. At 5 degrees, you're running 250gpm and maybe 97% of those droplets are freezing and you're not even using compressed air anymore.

And humidity dramatically affects production. Have a look at a psychrometric chart to learn more about RH's direct effects on wet bulb.

If you want more, just ask!

It's "heat of fusion", btw. Allow me to remind you that I'm an M.E. So I may have taken a few physics, chem, thermo and heat transfer courses along the way....

So what? I do understand all you discussed. Yes, RH is used to calculate wet bulb.
You end up with very wet snow that you can either let leech, or groom immediately into a skating rink. I've seen both. Regardless, you're probably not going to consume much more than 200k-225k gallons of water per acre foot of snow. I've been using the rough figure of 180k for my calculations here, which is still on the high side....wet snow.

This is all irrelevant to Sugarloaf. It was cold enough up there to blow top to bottom. If it was 28F WB at the bottom, it was certainly colder up top during the day. They seemed to be doing alright on production for only a few days too....proof is in the pudding. I'm not suggesting they blew at 28F WB the entire time, it was ceratinly colder.

Lets face facts here - if you don't have the capablity to blow in 25-28F WB..........you're going to have a bad time. How do you think all these resorts south of VT stay in business? Not everyone can afford to wait around for 10F inorder to make snow...they wouldn't get open. There will always be a market for snowmaking tech that performs efficiently at higher temps - hence the fan guns. Ditto for systems like the IDE snowmaker....now that's the way to go.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

It's "heat of fusion", btw. Allow me to remind you that I'm an M.E. So I may have taken a few physics, chem, thermo and heat transfer courses along the way....

So what? I do understand all you discussed. Yes, RH is used to calculate wet bulb.
You end up with very wet snow that you can either let leech, or groom immediately into a skating rink. I've seen both. Regardless, you're probably not going to consume much more than 200k-225k gallons of water per acre foot of snow. I've been using the rough figure of 180k for my calculations here, which is still on the high side....wet snow.

This is all irrelevant to Sugarloaf. It was cold enough up there to blow top to bottom. If it was 28F WB at the bottom, it was certainly colder up top during the day. They seemed to be doing alright on production for only a few days too....proof is in the pudding. I'm not suggesting they blew at 28F WB the entire time, it was ceratinly colder.

Lets face facts here - if you don't have the capablity to blow in 25-28F WB..........you're going to have a bad time. How do you think all these resorts south of VT stay in business? Not everyone can afford to wait around for 10F inorder to make snow...they wouldn't get open. There will always be a market for snowmaking tech that performs efficiently at higher temps - hence the fan guns. Ditto for systems like the IDE snowmaker....now that's the way to go.

Yes, "heat of fusion." Hit the "d" instead of the "t." I'm well versed in the theory, I assure you.

The typical number being thrown around the industry right now is 12,000 gallons per acre inch for average quality snow (30 or so lbs/cubic foot). So you're not too far off for wet snow.

I'm not arguing for anyone's side of this. I was just asked to discuss the dynamics of snowmaking. So I did. I wasn't talking about the Loaf at all. You didn't argue with any of my points, so I guess we're in agreement?

 

[BushMogulMaster]

BTW BMM...How is everyone out there taking the first game of the WS. The CR looked like former members of the developement squad, when is the actual team coming east? :lol:

hahaha... considering that half the students are east coasters, half of us are lovin it, and half are hatin it!

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Well, at least you're good for something :wink:


So, SRO, how are things in the good 'ol MRV holding up?

Everything is going good. Busy summer at the Bush, had alot of fun. This season will be a big change for me as I am leaving the "old school" behind and moving up to the modern era of skiing. Buying a pair of almost new Rossi Bandit Demo's with binding for the sweet price of $288, almost new boots are also in the budget. The Bandits are 167 and my ski's of the last 5 years are 190's so I guess they are going to take abit of getting used to.

Hopefully we can ski together when you come back for a visit and you can tell me all about it. Curious how Leadville is to live at being over 10,000ft. BTW, my son took off early this morning bound for DIA, then to Breck as his job starts Nov 1. I think you guys are the same age.His employee housing looks pretty sweet so now me and your dad have something else in common other than being old fart Sugarbushers. Study hard, have fun.

 

[BushMogulMaster]

Everything is going good, this season will be a big change for me as I am leaving the "old school" behind and moving up to the modern era of skiing. Buying a pair of almost new Rossi Bandit Demo's with binding for the sweet price of $288, almost new boots are also in the budget. The Bandits are 167 and my ski's of the last 5 years are 190's so I guess they are going to take abit of getting used to.

Wow... you actually gave in? Heck, when I come back out here after Christmas break, I'm bringing my 160 straights with me! I get such a kick out of tearing up a zipperline on 15 year old straight skis!

Hopefully we can ski together when you come back for a visit and you can tell me all about it. Curious how Leadville is to live at being over 10,000ft. BTW, my son took off early this morning bound for DIA, then to Breck as his job starts Nov 1. His employee housing looks pretty sweet so now me and your dad have something in common other than being old fart Sugarbushers. Study hard, have fun.

We'll definitely have to make some turns.

Took about 2 weeks to be able to actually breathe up here @ 10000ft! Acclimatization is quite a process.

Glad to here your son's getting ready to settle in out here. I'm sure he'll love it.

And please, please, please, try to keep my dad in line. Someone has to do it. :wink:

Well, I've gotta head off to bed. OEC @ 8AM, then Snowmaking at 2:30, and Stats at 6:00. Busy day tomorrow!

 

[snowman]

Wow... you actually gave in? Heck, when I come back out here after Christmas break, I'm bringing my 160 straights with me! I get such a kick out of tearing up a zipperline on 15 year old straight skis!

Pfffft. That's no fun. Let me lend you some 215 Atomic Super G boards from the "Red Sled" era. :smile:

 

[Vortex]

Well it took 25 min to read what I missed last night. What was this about. I think Snowman has some good points that are open to discussion. I agree with some I disagree with some. As far as attacking people.I have made turns with oldsnowboarder ( a gentleman and a person my son respected instantly)Snowseek... As fun a person to hang with as you will find. Name the time and place and he will be here. Adapted his life to count days not on the hill as opposed to those on the hill. He wins.

This site for me is about meeting people and making turns and having fun. Attacks don't belong here.

The last thing is many here are in the know and don't act like they do (humble)

Want to know about the River listen to Eastcoastpowderhound. This is only about fun. I do fairly well in the that category. So keep the thread going but remember this is about community.

 

[YardSaleDad]

You're a moron Greg, Frontpage is way better", would you get annoyed and begin to talk down to me at that point? Yes, most likely you would.

Greg has not, as far as I know, talked down to anyone on this forum. He has stepped in when people have gotten abusive.

 

[snoseek]

I took my annoying sig down.

 

[Vortex]

Well done gents .A tour would be fun. Snowseek travel safe you will be missed. I hear they have lift lagers out west also.

 

[Greg]

Wild night. Let's get back on topic. Now that we're closer to this potential snowmaking window, I checked the NWS. The point forecast at Sugarloaf for 2,942 feet looks very good starting Sunday night:

Sunday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 24.

Monday: Mostly sunny, with a high near 38.

Monday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around 18.

Tuesday: A chance of showers. Mostly cloudy, with a high near 35. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

Tuesday Night: A chance of showers. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 22. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

Wednesday: Partly sunny, with a high near 43.

The Accuweater 15 Day has moderated a little bit, but it still has things trending colder through day 15:

http://www.accuweather.com/forecast-15day.asp?partner=forecastfox&traveler=0&zipcode=04947&metric=0

Again, that's Kingfield. Still looks very promising to me.

 

[Highway Star]

Yes, "heat of fusion." Hit the "d" instead of the "t." I'm well versed in the theory, I assure you.

The typical number being thrown around the industry right now is 12,000 gallons per acre inch for average quality snow (30 or so lbs/cubic foot). So you're not too far off for wet snow.

I'm not arguing for anyone's side of this. I was just asked to discuss the dynamics of snowmaking. So I did. I wasn't talking about the Loaf at all. You didn't argue with any of my points, so I guess we're in agreement?

No, but point being, it shouldn't take more than a 3 solid nights or 2 solid days/nights to open Tote road, in contrary to what snowman implied. For an upper mountain opening at sugarloaf, 2 nights should be sufficient......

 

[Greg]

No, but point being, it shouldn't take more than a 3 solid nights or 2 solid days/nights to open Tote road, in contrary to what snowman implied. For an upper mountain opening at sugarloaf, 2 nights should be sufficient......

Well, last year, they were able to get skiable coverage on Tote Road in "3 days" on two separate occasions in November. I'm not sure if that was round-the-clock snowmaking or not:

http://news.alpinezone.com/11009/
http://news.alpinezone.com/11319/

I still say an opening late next week is very possible.

 

[2knees]

WTF is a chinese downhill?

I had sunny side UP
I had sunny side DOWN
I had sunny side ALL ZEE VAY AROUND.

sorry, i had to get in on this somehow.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Wild night. Let's get back on topic. Now that we're closer to this potential snowmaking window, I checked the NWS. The point forecast at Sugarloaf for 2,942 feet looks very good starting Sunday night:


The Accuweater 15 Day has moderated a little bit, but it still has things trending colder through day 15:

http://www.accuweather.com/forecast-15day.asp?partner=forecastfox&traveler=0&zipcode=04947&metric=0

Again, that's Kingfield. Still looks very promising to me.

For resorts wanting to open around the 10th this should be welcome news. Course, the weather after the forcast period is very important for those managers who worry about the snow they would make melting off.

For the resorts opening 11/15-11/22 and hoping to have a good t-day weekend most will probably have to wait and hope for the cold weather during the above forecast period to continue. Conversly I suppose some will be of the mind to make as much snow as possible in a storage MO hoping to be able to move it onto the terrain 2 weeks later.

We are finally getting to a point where we find out who talks the talk and who walks the walk. Will Powdr/SP be a leader in the amount/quality of terrain available when they open or continue into the season with their path of bottomline driven actions and decisions.

If the weather forcast holds the ski season will start around the 26th, looking forward to seeing the snowmaking pics. Who will have the most guns blasting? I'm getting so giddy I can hardly stand it..:lol:

 

[Highway Star]

We are finally getting to a point where we find out who talks the talk and who walks the walk. Will Powdr/SP be a leader in the amount/quality of terrain available when they open or continue into the season with their path of bottomline driven actions and decisions.

From what Killington has said, they will be doing the full K-1/Glades/Snowdon opening as they have done in years past....which is alot of terrain and tends to be fun, if a bit crowded. However, they have also said that they will not expend lots of energy to make snow in marginal temps in an attempt to "open early". They have also stated an opening date of Nov. 16th.

As is becoming the norm with Killington these days, these 3 statements seem to be in conflict. As stated previously, it requires 100+ acre feet of snow to open all that terrain. It is unlikely they will see a solid window of sub-20F temps down to the the K-1 long enough to do all the production, and then there are no promises it won't simply melt. If they get into a bad situation with the weather like last year, will they pull the plug on snowmaking and not even open for thanksgiving? Or will they push an opening because it's a holiday?

We'll see...but it would be highly embarassing if Killington didn't open until December, with other resorts opening in mid-Novemeber......really, really bad PR.

 

[JimG.]

From what Killington has said, they will be doing the full K-1/Glades/Snowdon opening as they have done in years past....which is alot of terrain and tends to be fun, if a bit crowded. However, they have also said that they will not expend lots of energy to make snow in marginal temps in an attempt to "open early". They have also stated an opening date of Nov. 16th.

As is becoming the norm with Killington these days, these 3 statements seem to be in conflict. As stated previously, it requires 100+ acre feet of snow to open all that terrain. It is unlikely they will see a solid window of sub-20F temps down to the the K-1 long enough to do all the production, and then there are no promises it won't simply melt. If they get into a bad situation with the weather like last year, will they pull the plug on snowmaking and not even open for thanksgiving? Or will they push an opening because it's a holiday?

We'll see...but it would be highly embarassing if Killington didn't open until December, with other resorts opening in mid-Novemeber......really, really bad PR.

Some folks get on your case HS, but this is an excellent post.

Unfortunately, we have to wait to see what happens.

 

[mister moose]

.. I am really a nice guy and treat people with courtesty and respect until I have been pushed (forced) to do otherwise.

You are never forced. It is a concious decision on your part. The test of your character is during times of adversity, not when everything is going your way. Everyone is nice when things go their way.

Not directed at you in particular, as several others have made that exact same statement, or a close copy.

(And you guys say K zone is bad).