Lodges that don't allow outside food

[ss20]

And margin.

When I worked for Intrawest (Snowshoe), tickets and passes were about 70% of annual revenue and 90% of the profit. Ski school was a high profit center for their mountains. F&B were lucky to break even many years.

I'm always amused when people assume mountains make a bunch of money off F&B operations. They don't, even with the high prices. It's an extremely difficult balance to make any $$ annually off F&B at ski areas, especially in the East where almost all the business is crammed into two days a week.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

Ditto 100x. Do sports stadiums make their money in F&B? No. They make money by charging $200 to put an ass in a seat. Do ski resorts make money with F&B? No, they make it by selling ski lessons taught by instructors making $12, and renting out skis for $60 a day that pay for themselves in 4-6 uses, and charging $150 a night at a hotel. Not off of $8 burgers...which, in all honesty...probably has a higher cost than most think.

Food and bev in both industries is expensive because you HAVE to eat there or bring your own. You're not gonna stroll to the nearest McDonalds exactly.

 

[ss20]

that may be true but it didnt seem that way to me when I paid 8 bucks for a small bowl of mac n cheese.
t

That's a lot of labor cost. Culinary is a place where it's hard to cheap out. Lots of health districts require someone with food safety training on-staff at all times. Not saying this person is making crazy $$$ but it's more than the ski industry standard of minimum wage plus a dime if you're lucky.

 

[benski]

That's a lot of labor cost. Culinary is a place where it's hard to cheap out. Lots of health districts require someone with food safety training on-staff at all times. Not saying this person is making crazy $$$ but it's more than the ski industry standard of minimum wage plus a dime if you're lucky.

Isn't that true of many pizza places that charge less for the same thing? I am not sure how a slice of pizza at a ski resort costs 2x what it costs in NYC.

 

[deadheadskier]

Isn't that true of many pizza places that charge less for the same thing? I am not sure how a slice of pizza at a ski resort costs 2x what it costs in NYC.

Well, the ingredients are going to cost a lot more at a ski resort than a Manhattan pizza shop. Not 100% more, but quite a bit. Fewer vendors in ski country competing for the shops business and as with anything else, volume drives down costs of goods. I'd be willing to bet a ski area pizza shop is paying on the order of 50% more for flour, cheese and everything else vs a Manhattan shop.

But the biggest difference is a place in Manhattan has the ability to make money 365 days a year. An eastern ski area F&B operation? Maybe 50. So, those 50 days you better be making enough money to cover the 315 days you are running in the red.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[skiur]

Well, the ingredients are going to cost a lot more at a ski resort than a Manhattan pizza shop. Not 100% more, but quite a bit. Fewer vendors in ski country competing for the shops business and as with anything else, volume drives down costs of goods. I'd be willing to bet a ski area pizza shop is paying on the order of 50% more for flour, cheese and everything else vs a Manhattan shop.

But the biggest difference is a place in Manhattan has the ability to make money 365 days a year. An eastern ski area F&B operation? Maybe 50. So, those 50 days you better be making enough money to cover the 315 days you are running in the red.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

I would disagree, maybe it costs the ski resort more for ingredients than it costs a pizza place in Westchester or LI, but go into the city, especially Manhattan and those ingredients cost just went up 50%. Pizza places in the city do have the luxury of selling a shit load of pizza 7 days a week while ski resorts have to sell the majority of it on the weekend only.

 

[tumbler]

Lodge food has always been expensive because as DH points out from his experience it needs to be. Plus they have a captive audience so they can charge more. Like a beer at Fenway costs $11! I still buy it though. At least a lot of the resorts have upped the food game so the quality is much better than it used to be.

 

[Glenn]

I thought I read awhile back F&B only counted for about 10% of total revenue. Not sure if I'm in correct in that number.

Apres gets pricy. A couple drinks and an app at the mountain can be as much as a dinner out in the flatlands on a weeknight at a local place.

 

[mister moose]

A few numbers to give some perspective:

(Vail Resorts, mountain related income, 2017 annual report) In millions.

Lift tickets, passes $818 51%
Retail, rental........ $293 18%
Other.................. $172 11%

Ski School............ $178 11%
​

Dining................. $151 9%​

"ETP" or average yield on lift revenue per skier visit $67.93

Multi profit center businesses like this can slide the beads on the abacus in several ways. Does F&B absorb a share of G&A, or is it pure supplemental income? In other words, how much of the high capital cost of running the resort are you going to allocate to selling a burger?

The ETP number consists of a mix of all ticket types; dividing the cost of an Epic pass at ~$900 gets you 13 days per pass sold. Not a big number.

While F&B revenue is ~10% as Glenn remembers, I'm not too sure the margin there isn't pretty good.

 

[ss20]

I thought I read awhile back F&B only counted for about 10% of total revenue. Not sure if I'm in correct in that number.

Apres gets pricy. A couple drinks and an app at the mountain can be as much as a dinner out in the flatlands on a weeknight at a local place.

But I thought you liked homemade food? And just do...

 

[puckoach]

First off, SiliconBobSquarePants post should hit our nerves a little. Here in the NH/VT/ME region, we have lost a few ski area's over the years. With a few others, that are just holding on.

I get that this site is in part driven by people that seek to ski economically. For some of the elements, I do to.

But, as an operator of seasonal businesses for more than a few decades, it's possible a few thoughts should be added into the thread.

The biggest hurdle is a seasonal business is staffing. Which has gotten more difficult, as our populace evolves. Reluctance to certain physical tasks, reduced work ethic, full time year round 9-5 for 5 (or less) is now a general attitude. A good economy has a further impact. Recruiting costs money per add click. Despite clear message that a job is weekends and Holiday's, once on boarded, "I can't work on ……..

The snow makers and groomers are a unique breed, with their own culture. Great workers, long hours, tough conditions. But, did you know that some are from New Zealand or Australia. Or, that some USA residents work the South American ski area's during our summer ?

I had a waiter a few years ago at the Mt Washington Hotel. Was there for the winter, worked Key West during the Spring, and was a guide in Denali National Park for a cruise line in the summer.

Some Ski Area's import lifites too. Or, F & B help. Where to they stay, and at who's cost ?

I'm sure some area's use recent retirees, working them on weekends for the skiing benefit during the week. Maybe some school age mothers hours workers too. But, getting an entire staff, and managing them is a challenge, and it costs.

Depending on the state, what does a ski area get assessed for Unemployment taxes, when their experience shows they lay off 70 people for 8 months a year.

I am not trying to change the world here. But, I would like to get people to stop trying to OWN a table in the lodge.

Final comments,

Leave your blue tooth speaker at home. We all have different tastes in music.

As to a crock pot, if it's my lodge, I'm coming with the wire cutters...…

 

[ss20]

The cheap pass wars are the final nail in the coffin for ski area employment. If you needed a cheap pass to your favorite ski place you'd bump chairs 2 days a week to get the pass (worth $1000 or so). Now with this "pass wars" phenomenon and passes that cost under $500 why bother with the job? The effect is worse with 20-somethings that are a critical component of a resort's labor. Their passes are even cheaper...*sigh*.

I really think this is going to be the season where we start seeing the effects that lack of staff can play at a resort. Everyone is severely understaffed. Either pass prices have to go up, resorts have to pay more than minimum wage, or the economy has to tank before this gets better.

 

[deadheadskier]

I would disagree, maybe it costs the ski resort more for ingredients than it costs a pizza place in Westchester or LI, but go into the city, especially Manhattan and those ingredients cost just went up 50%. Pizza places in the city do have the luxury of selling a shit load of pizza 7 days a week while ski resorts have to sell the majority of it on the weekend only.

No they don't. I used to work in wholesale food supplies to restaurants. The prices were actually lower in Manhattan than even Westchester. Same goes for Boston vs suburbs.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

 

[jimk]

As to a crock pot, if it's my lodge, I'm coming with the wire cutters...…

That line gave me one of my best belly laughs in quite a while
Good overall post with some valid stuff to think about.

 

[skiur]

No they don't. I used to work in wholesale food supplies to restaurants. The prices were actually lower in Manhattan than even Westchester. Same goes for Boston vs suburbs.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using AlpineZone mobile app

How long ago? Prices has skyrocketed in the last few years due to rising transportaion costs. Unless owners are driving out to hunts point and getting there own, they certainly have gone up a lot. Having shit delivered into manhattan is not economical. Add in rent to the equation and it is extremely difficult for a pizza place to make money in Manhattan. Not saying ski resorts have it easy, but its certainly easier than Manhattan.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The ETP number consists of a mix of all ticket types; dividing the cost of an Epic pass at ~$900 gets you 13 days per pass sold. Not a big number.

And I'll bet the average EPIC pass holder spends less than 13 days on the slopes.

No they don't. I used to work in wholesale food supplies to restaurants. The prices were actually lower in Manhattan than even Westchester. Same goes for Boston vs suburbs.

How is that possible? If defies economics, as well as my decade of life in Manhattan. Perhaps if you're a giant chain you can volumetrically bring the costs down by buying a ******** of flour or mushrooms, etc..., but for the average mom & pop store I cant believe your example is financially possible.

 

[BenedictGomez]

The cheap pass wars are the final nail in the coffin for ski area employment. If you needed a cheap pass to your favorite ski place you'd bump chairs 2 days a week to get the pass (worth $1000 or so). Now with this "pass wars" phenomenon and passes that cost under $500 why bother with the job?

Wow, that's a great thought I hadnt considered.

I'm a great example of this, I worked at Stowe for 6 years because my recently out-of-college azz couldnt afford the...... I may be wrong, but I think the pass was between $1,000-$1,300 those years.

Which is worse than it sounds due to inflation, but mostly due to the destruction of the USD over the years, as $1,300 is closer to $2,000 in today's money. But in 2018? Yeah, I'd surely pony-up the $669 for an EPIC Local pass. Big difference between a youngster paying $2,000 versus $669, and not insignificantly, "youngsters" are the target ski jobs demographic.

 

[Abominable]

How is that possible? If defies economics, as well as my decade of life in Manhattan. Perhaps if you're a giant chain you can volumetrically bring the costs down by buying a ******** of flour or mushrooms, etc..., but for the average mom & pop store I cant believe your example is financially possible.

Having lived in both the city and Wchester, it's surprising (but maybe it shouldn't be) that lots of stuff is more expensive outside of the city. Real estate / rents might be cheaper for a storefront, but things like groceries and other foodstuffs, or even something like gasoline, the city is such a major import hub and there's so many distributors of the stuff it's cheaper.

Labor costs have to be more expensive in the city if you're talking minimum wage and benefits and such, but I bet in the city there's more ways to get around it.

And to Puckoach's point, my job has me looking at lots of different types of operations around the county, and labor costs and staffing difficulties are often the biggest problem for ownership.

 

[Glenn]

A few numbers to give some perspective:

(Vail Resorts, mountain related income, 2017 annual report) In millions.

Lift tickets, passes $818 51%
Retail, rental........ $293 18%
Other.................. $172 11%

Ski School............ $178 11%
​

Dining................. $151 9%​

"ETP" or average yield on lift revenue per skier visit $67.93

Multi profit center businesses like this can slide the beads on the abacus in several ways. Does F&B absorb a share of G&A, or is it pure supplemental income? In other words, how much of the high capital cost of running the resort are you going to allocate to selling a burger?

The ETP number consists of a mix of all ticket types; dividing the cost of an Epic pass at ~$900 gets you 13 days per pass sold. Not a big number.

While F&B revenue is ~10% as Glenn remembers, I'm not too sure the margin there isn't pretty good.

This is a great breakdown. Thanks for sharing.

But I thought you liked homemade food? And just do...

LOL! I seriously do! But I think the spammer who posted that is long gone. I'll have to find another one to memorialize in the ol' sig.

 

[BenedictGomez]

Having lived in both the city and Wchester, it's surprising (but maybe it shouldn't be) that lots of stuff is more expensive outside of the city. Real estate / rents might be cheaper for a storefront, but things like groceries and other foodstuffs, or even something like gasoline, the city is such a major import hub and there's so many distributors of the stuff it's cheaper.

Labor costs have to be more expensive in the city if you're talking minimum wage and benefits and such, but I bet in the city there's more ways to get around it.

Having lived here literally my entire life, that is not my experience at all.

Do you buy your own groceries? I spent a decade ferrying groceries into Manhattan from Jersey, and it wasnt because I enjoyed humping milk & salsa. Or perhaps Westchester is it's own extremely expensive microcosm and is thus a very bad comparative example. Put another way, there are other places "outside of the city" where hedge fund managers dont live.

 

[skiur]

Having lived in both the city and Wchester, it's surprising (but maybe it shouldn't be) that lots of stuff is more expensive outside of the city. Real estate / rents might be cheaper for a storefront, but things like groceries and other foodstuffs, or even something like gasoline, the city is such a major import hub and there's so many distributors of the stuff it's cheaper.

Labor costs have to be more expensive in the city if you're talking minimum wage and benefits and such, but I bet in the city there's more ways to get around it.

And to Puckoach's point, my job has me looking at lots of different types of operations around the county, and labor costs and staffing difficulties are often the biggest problem for ownership.

You can get gas cheaper in manhattan then outside of it? Come on man, that is just ridicules, gas is currently around $2.75 a gallon for regular in the city, go out to queens its about $2.59 and in Nassau county its $2.45.