Magic Mountain ...

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

Those numbers are likely for the upper mountain..it would be interesting to see average snowfalls for base areas..J.Spins stats from his house in Waterbury are interesting..

 

[polski]

The 300 shares are just what is need to get them off the ground for next season. They'll need more as time goes on. IIRC it took a long time for the MRG Co-op to sell enough shares to completely buy out Betsy.

MRG Coop formed December 1995; 1,667th share sold (at $1500 per) and mortgage paid off in April 1998, per history and board minutes on the MRG site. Of course those were the roaring '90s, and as discussed here earlier there are other differences between the MRG and Magic communities (though one advantage Magic has, if played right, is closer proximity to NYC metro area).

The MRG co-op owns the mountain. Magic is on leased land. The only way you could make the place viable is if you owned the land outright and were able to build enough condos to fund the infrastructure improvements to have 100% snowmaking.

Per the letter jrmagic posted, Jim Sullivan now has made clear the first $300k of share revenue would go toward purchasing the mountain & facilities outright, though to my knowledge he hasn't said yet what the total purchase price would be.

While I agree it's essential that a co-op own the mountain sooner or later, I think relying on condos would be a mistake for bunch of reasons, particularly in this economic environment but even in better times. Part of what makes Magic special is it doesn't have massive slopeside development. I also see no need for 100% snowmaking -- it'll be expensive enough just to get their snowmaking to a subsistence level. Magic's hard core (most likely to buy shares) will, like MRG shareholders, understand when blacks have to be closed for insufficient natural snow. One of the main things Magic needs is to be able to make money under pretty much any conditions during the make-or-break holiday weeks, even if only the East side is open.

I'll be curious to see further details from Sullivan for the capital and operational expenses that will be required for subsistence snowmaking. Seems to me that will be a tough nut to crack.

I guess there would also be a separate majority shareholder.

Not sure how if that would work if there's also a cooperative. I know at MRG an individual can buy no more than four shares, so nobody gains undue influence within the coop. That must be an MRG thing but from my initial glance at VT cooperative law I see it says "Each shareholder shall have only one vote in all matters pertaining to the management of the corporation" and "Not more than ten percent of the capital stock of such corporation shall be owned by any one member." Other sections do say stock may be divided into preferred and one or more common classes but preferred stock has no voting privileges.

 

[marcski]

So, where does the Co-op leave Jim Sullivan? Will he or his LLC have an ownership interest in addition to being the owner of (a) share(s)? Will he or his LLC have an agreement to run the mountain?

How will the mountain be run under the co-op? Correct me if I'm wrong, but at MRG, the Co-op votes in a board of trustees who then run the mountain day to day.

 

[polski]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at MRG, the Co-op votes in a board of trustees who then run the mountain day to day.

The co-op votes in a board which oversees paid management & staff.

 

[ski_resort_observer]

I was surprised to learn that Magic had only 16,000 skier visits this past winter. I think some lodging at the base would be important as there is not alot of lodging in the Londonderry area whereas by comparison in the MRV there is alot. When MRG opened, 4 inns were built and opened on Rt 17. The Garrison, Hyde-Away, Mad River Barn, not sure about the fourth, maybe the Millbrook Inn.

I would think getting people to pony up is a tough sell until the snowmaking pond issue is resolved.

 

[skiadikt]

I was surprised to learn that Magic had only 16,000 skier visits this past winter. I think some lodging at the base would be important as there is not alot of lodging in the Londonderry area whereas by comparison in the MRV there is alot. When MRG opened, 4 inns were built and opened on Rt 17. The Garrison, Hyde-Away, Mad River Barn, not sure about the fourth, maybe the Millbrook Inn.

I would think getting people to pony up is a tough sell until the snowmaking pond issue is resolved.

yikes! that's a saturday at killington. very sad. thought they were doing better than that.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

blue mountain does 300k..wow..they need snowmaking..better lifts..lodging and some marketing..maybe the Okemo folks can buy Magic..

 

[2knees]

blue mountain does 300k..wow..they need snowmaking..better lifts..lodging and some marketing..maybe the Okemo folks can buy Magic..

You've skied all over, have you ever hit magic?


This whole thing has been bugging me for 2 weeks now. Most of us had heard about the possibility of going co-op long before it was announced. But the possibility of next ski season with no Magic is really lousy. Times are tough in general, but the majority of this population seems to have survived rather well. We're still skiing, correct?

We should do something to save the one true mtn left in vermont other then MRG. Come up with ideas cause every little bit helps, monetarily or creatively. Shares can be purchased by alpinezoners.


cue the questions for the short and long term business plan.....

 

[tekweezle]

this season, good snow had pretty much trumped bad economy. if not for this ill timed spring conditions weather pattern, this season was shaping up to be pretty good here in the northeast.

unfortunately, you can't rely solely on mother nature in the snow starved parts. snow making would atleast put Magic atleast approaching par with it;s neighbors.

 

[faceplant]

'We are pleased to note that the initial response has been very encouraging'

Email frm Magic on 4/6-


Magic Mtn. Alpine Update
Thank you all for your support of Magic this season. Mother nature played a few tricks early on, but by January we hit our stride, and the natural snow combined with the snow making efforts produced a very enjoyable season on the slopes. We are appreciative of the devotion and enthusiasm of all who patronize Magic, and we are looking forward to the future with optimism.
In terms of the future, many of you have recently received two letters outlining our pursuit of establishing a co-op at Magic similar to the model at Mad River Glen. We are pleased to note that the initial response has been very encouraging, and we are in the process of putting together a formal offering. The business plan and budget will soon be available for review and comment, so please keep an eye out for them in your in-box or at www.magicmtn.com. For those of you who did not receive the first two letters, they will be posted on our web-site by 4/7/09. We will add all recipients of the Alpine Update to the co-op e-mail list, and we ask that you help spread the word about the co-op as far and wide as possible. Anyone who is not on the Alpine Update list and is interested in participating or is simply curious should contact us at info@magicmtn.com, and we will add them to the co-op e-mail distribution.

We are excited about the prospect of the co-op and are looking forward to working together with skiers, riders, and all other interested parties to stabilize and improve the mountain and to perpetuate the Magic experience for many years to come. We look forward to working with you all in establishing a solid and successful future for this great mountain. Thank you again for your support.




-keep your fingers crosed-

 

[Geoff]

While I agree it's essential that a co-op own the mountain sooner or later, I think relying on condos would be a mistake for bunch of reasons, particularly in this economic environment but even in better times. Part of what makes Magic special is it doesn't have massive slopeside development. I also see no need for 100% snowmaking -- it'll be expensive enough just to get their snowmaking to a subsistence level. Magic's hard core (most likely to buy shares) will, like MRG shareholders, understand when blacks have to be closed for insufficient natural snow. One of the main things Magic needs is to be able to make money under pretty much any conditions during the make-or-break holiday weeks, even if only the East side is open.

You just explained why Magic did 16,000 skier visits this season. You can't possibly operate Magic on a MRG budget since Magic doesn't get the reliable snow.

Magic will always fail without snowmaking. If the competition is near-100% open at Christmas, nobody is going to show up so Magic needs to be able to blow snow on just about everything. To afford snowmaking, you need to provide attractions and terrain for the masses so you can sell enough day tickets. If you go co-op and keep it the way it is with modest improvements to the snowmaking system, you're going to continue to see 16,000 skier visits and a constant bouncing in and out of financial crisis until the next group of suckers pour money in. The location should be able to attract plenty of rich people to buy the slopeside trophy homes that would fund the capital improvements once the economy turns around. With enlightened management, you wouldn't need to turn the hill into an overgroomed tilted dance floor. You need the comfy base lodge, cushy lift, and the groomed McSkiing to pay the bills but you can leave enough of the hill alone to keep it's character.

A second living ski museum in Vermont would be a great thing but I just don't see how it is possible using private money given the natural snow issues in that microclimate.

 

[riverc0il]

Geoff has a lot of good points and I also disagree with some of polski's points. Magic will never have enough shareholders that it can rely on them to keep the ski area profitable. Even MRG lives and dies by its day ticket sales from non-shareholders. But the difference is MRG has substantially more natural snow fall, fewer thaws, less rain, and generally better conditions and more days with good terrain open. Magic by comparison needs a snow made base to build on top of. Even natural snow fall trails should receive at least a minimum of snow making to set the base. Major trails not opening up until late January into February is not acceptable at any major mountain (excepting glades and the steepest of natural snow only trails such as Master.

Magic really needs to be looking at around 80% snow making coverage to be viable, IMO. I love the place, but I would have skied there 3x more when I lived in MA if they had a base. Not only is that a problem practically... but also the perception is even worse. Most people think they can't ski Magic unless it has snowed recently which is lame. The issue is you can't really ski the mountain with consistency until they have a base... which takes a long time to develop during most seasons (and gets washed away too quickly).

I think selling some slopeside to get investment money for snow making would be a wise idea once the housing market kicks back into gear. A few more slopeside condos is not going to destroy the Magic base area and it could provide enough cash for snow making. The question is who will buy the units? When I moved into the Plymouth area, Tenney Mountain's condos were completely off my radar because who knows if the mountain will close and result in lowering of property values?

Ultimately, the whole thing is a chicken versus the egg issue. And ultimately, I think snowmaking will temporarily save Magic if it gets built and perhaps ultimately sink Magic if they need to borrow to do so.

 

[faceplant]

With most areas goin year round, can magic offer any off season recreation? hate to say it but i dont think thers much around there for condo owners, unless your talkin hiking/biking- but most folks are probly looking for golf/tennis

doesnt Jake Burton have some connection to magic?
if he dont want it to go under mebbe they could talk to him about some creative financin-
probly just pie in th sky tho

 

[Angus]

here's a quick observation about snow making versus natural snow at MAGIC based on my one visit ever the 2nd to last day they were open this season. Riding up the chair lift and looking across to Stratton and Bromley, those two mountains were covered in clouds and it appeared to be snowing quite abit while at MAGIC, it was the occasional flurry and an even rarer snow burst which did not amount to anything on the ground. Looking at the pictures someone posted from the woods at Stratton yesterday, I was amazed. There was no where that much snow at the top of MAGIC 3 or 4 weeks ago. The additional 1,000' really seems to make a huge difference in actual snowfall and more importantly preservation.

 

[marcski]

here's a quick observation about snow making versus natural snow at MAGIC based on my one visit ever the 2nd to last day they were open this season. Riding up the chair lift and looking across to Stratton and Bromley, those two mountains were covered in clouds and it appeared to be snowing quite abit while at MAGIC, it was the occasional flurry and an even rarer snow burst which did not amount to anything on the ground. Looking at the pictures someone posted from the woods at Stratton yesterday, I was amazed. There was no where that much snow at the top of MAGIC 3 or 4 weeks ago. The additional 1,000' really seems to make a huge difference in actual snowfall and more importantly preservation.

I'm not so sure I really agree with this. The elevation will make at most, some difference in the snowfall totals, but the three mountains, Stratton, Magic and Bromley probably are pretty similar in seasonal snowtotals. Plus those glades at Stratton must get some blow-in from the snowmaking trails that flank the glades on either side.

 

[billski]

Magic co-owner Jim Sullivan passes away

Just received via email.


April 10, 2009

Dear Friends of Magic:

I am writing to provide an update as to the progress on the co-op project and to inform those of you who have not yet heard of some sad news regarding one of the mountain’s most loyal supporters.

Larry Nelson, the managing partner of the current ownership group, passed away on April 4th. Larry was a force in keeping the mountain operational since it re-opened in 1998. He went to extraordinary lengths to preserve and support the mountain through difficult financial times, and Magic’s very existence today is attributable to Larry’s efforts over the years. On behalf of the Magic family, I have extended our condolences to Larry’s wife Barbara and his five children.

With respect to the co-op, the response has been very positive, and we are engaged in the process of creating a formal offering. A five year budget has been completed and the business plan on which the budget is premised is in the works. I had been working with Larry Nelson on the details of completing the purchase of the mountain, and I will now be working with his family who are also ardent supporters. The business plan and the budget are contingent upon solidifying an agreement with current ownership, and I will be discussing that with the Nelsons and the rest of the ownership group in the near future. Shortly thereafter I will report back to all of you and present the business plan and budget. The process is complex and therefore has taken longer than I expected, as there are many details to work out. Establishment of the co-op and a reasonable ownership/operations structure has my undivided attention, and I assure you all that the process is moving forward with the goal of issuing a formal offering as soon as possible. As stated previously, I am happy to field any questions or comments in the interim.

Thank you for your continued support of and interest in Magic’s future.

Sincerely,

Jim Sullivan

 

[ski_resort_observer]

Regarding snowmaking even Cochrans Ski Hill which is north of Sugarbush realized that snowmaking was key to having a viable reliable ski season. It's at a very low elevation. They spent $400,000 which is alot for such a little hill but it was totally worth it for them.

Without snowmaking, not counting the 2 guns for the practice slope MRG has not be been able to be open or were barely open 2 out of the last 3 Xmas/New Year holiday weeks. I know many co-op members who would like that to change but know that at the moment it's not even on the table.

 

[GrilledSteezeSandwich]

You've skied all over, have you ever hit magic?

QUOTE]

The slow lifts and lack of snow has kept me away..it's tough for me to drive to Magic when I can go another 2 hours and hit Stowe with lots of snow and fast lifts..if I was a CLIT within daytrip range I'd hit the mountain..

 

[tekweezle]

Magic needs something to differentiate them from the competition. Else they will always lose the head to head competion with their well funded neighbors..

since they are a snow starved and in low elevation, maybe they should investigate night skiing and lighting up the terrain park and halfpipe at night.....atleast extended hours till about 6-8pm maybe. no one else has that in VT to my knowledge and it could be a good start.

 

[riverc0il]

Magic already has something the local competition doesn't have. Uncrowded slopes and challenging terrain. Also, I believe they tried night skiing once and it failed. I think Stowe recently reduced or completely cut their night skiing... showing that it is not a money maker... unless you have a captive local audience in the metro areas which is why Bolton can be successful with their night skiing program.