Mittersill Photos (September 2010)

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted against reinvesting in Cannon. The word 'reinvest' implies taking proceeds from the operation and using them to maintain or improve it. The Mittersill project is taking net new tax dollars and expanding the size and scope of the ski area.

A $2.6M or $4M investment in the existing ski area would have gone a lot further - especially if it were spent on snowmaking.

Unless we end up in some sort of massive snow pattern in coming years, Cannon has not seen it's last season of operating in the red. The Mittersill project will do little to nothing to alter that.

Here's the thing though - and you still haven't addressed this. They can tackle the snowmaking issue just about any time. All it takes are the funds and the water. Getting approval to re-open a mountain with competing State and Federal landowner issues is an opportunity that only comes along once. In an ideal world, you may be right that they'd prefer to optimize their plant on the existing footprint before making such a large terrain leap. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world where ski area expansions of any size are nearly impossible to execute, especially when State and Federal lands are involved. I can't blame Cannon for jumping at the opportunity when it was presented. There's no telling what would have happened if the personalities and priorities changed within the bureaucracies with governing authority here.

In sum, you're being pretty naive and/or disingenuous about the real obstacles they've had to overcome and what their options really were from a staging/sequencing perspective.

 

[threecy]

Greater than 15%. In a market that's pretty flattish overall, that's pretty substantial.

Just to put you on the record, you're saying that Cannon Mountain will see 18,000 more annual skier visits because of Mittersill (a double chairlift that can support about 400 people), assuming no other expansion, by 2015-2016.

 

[threecy]

They can tackle the snowmaking issue just about any time. All it takes are the funds and the water. Getting approval to re-open a mountain with competing State and Federal landowner issues is an opportunity that only comes along once.

I think there are a lot of ski areas that wish it were that easy to get additional snowmkaing water. Mt. Snow, Waterville Valley, Magic Mountain, and Mt. Sunpaee all wave.

 

[EPB]

I think there are a lot of ski areas that wish it were that easy to get additional snowmkaing water. Mt. Snow, Waterville Valley, Magic Mountain, and Mt. Sunpaee all wave.

.... So jumping at an opportunity when it is presented is a good idea?

 

[bobbutts]

...:angry:

AZ and skiing are an escape from the unpleasant world of politics, budgets, and reality. A place to post stoke.

 

[riverc0il]

Actually, I'd be quite surprised if Cannon's skier visits didn't increase substantially over the next 5 years or so, in large part due to the higher profile generated by bringing Mittersill into the fold officially.

Eh. I think Cannon may see a slight bump this year but five years from now, I doubt they will be much higher in skier visits than they are now. Right now its novelty. They actually stand to risk loosing much of their hardcore base that went to Cannon specifically for what was a unique experience. Those that don't know other parts of Cannon that are equally as special may not see the mountain as so incredible as it once was. Let's not forget that the vast majority of skiers are not going to be well serviced by a lift that exclusively services nature snow only with no grooming nor snow making and is thin coverage during most of the season.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Just to put you on the record, you're saying that Cannon Mountain will see 18,000 more annual skier visits because of Mittersill (a double chairlift that can support about 400 people), assuming no other expansion, by 2015-2016.

I'm not sure how the 400 people issue is a limiting factor here. Are you of the belief that people who are enticed to give Cannon a try b/c of the Mittersill news will lap only that pod?

I'm intrigued enough by the recent expansions at Saddleback and Sugarloaf to give them a try, but I'm not going to be staying exclusively in Casablanca or Brackett Basin respectively. Moreover, when you see the impact that terrain expansion has had on places like Gore in the last 10 years, I don't think that 18K number is out of the question at all.

While some hardcores may shy away now (I think it more likely they'll simply move further afield if they are Cannon hardcores - plenty of terrain remains off the map). the far larger impact, IMO, will be the fact that with lift access, the Mittersill terrain will be accessible and attractive to a much larger set of skiers. The universe of people who want that sort of experience, but can't/won't hike for it is FAR larger than the universe of people who will hike for it.

 

[skiberg]

I'm not sure how the 400 people issue is a limiting factor here. Are you of the belief that people who are enticed to give Cannon a try b/c of the Mittersill news will lap only that pod?

I'm intrigued enough by the recent expansions at Saddleback and Sugarloaf to give them a try, but I'm not going to be staying exclusively in Casablanca or Brackett Basin respectively. Moreover, when you see the impact that terrain expansion has had on places like Gore in the last 10 years, I don't think that 18K number is out of the question at all.

While some hardcores may shy away now (I think it more likely they'll simply move further afield if they are Cannon hardcores - plenty of terrain remains off the map). the far larger impact, IMO, will be the fact that with lift access, the Mittersill terrain will be accessible and attractive to a much larger set of skiers. The universe of people who want that sort of experience, but can't/won't hike for it is FAR larger than the universe of people who will hike for it.

This is exactly why I think the skiing on the hike terrain will be better than it has in years.

 

[deadheadskier]

I don't think a sustained 18K increase in skier visits or more than that is inconceivable at all.

Never-evers and 'recreational' skiers are attracted to stats. Mittersill adds a big time jump to Cannon's trail count and acreage marketability.

From everything I've read, the on snow experience at Cannon has been much improved over the past 4 years or so due to greater snowmaking commitment. Without bed base expansion they'll never be a hugely popular area, but I think they can syphon a number of Boston day trippers from other areas.

 

[threecy]

.... So jumping at an opportunity when it is presented is a good idea?

I don't think it's an accurate statement to say that Mittersill was a limited window. The land is all owned by the state now - they can do pretty much what they want and when they want.

I'm not sure how the 400 people issue is a limiting factor here. Are you of the belief that people who are enticed to give Cannon a try b/c of the Mittersill news will lap only that pod?

The implication is that the 18,000 skiers who haven't been skiing Cannon are now suddenly going to show up because of a double chairlift being installed on Mittersill. It's hard to explain where they will ski when it's doubtful that they'll even be there. Bottom line - if the Mittersill double operates at capacity without any slows or stops, it can support 400 people skiing 3 runs an hour.

I'm intrigued enough by the recent expansions at Saddleback and Sugarloaf to give them a try, but I'm not going to be staying exclusively in Casablanca or Brackett Basin respectively. Moreover, when you see the impact that terrain expansion has had on places like Gore in the last 10 years, I don't think that 18K number is out of the question at all.

I'd be surpised (as would Boyne) if Sugarloaf sees 18,000 more annual skier visits based upon this year's expansion.

Saddleback's expansion is much more drastic - they've taken a 1960s ski area and brought it up to modern standards with a new base lodge, dramatic snowmaking expansion (including fan guns), new lift infrastructure, and new terrain, in only a few short years. It may not be sustainable, either, if the rumors leaked here and elsewhere are true.

I'm not familiar with Gore, but just looking at trail maps, it seems like their expansion is a bit more than installing a double chairlift:

 

[deadheadskier]

Going to make a few guestimates here.

Let's look at Sunapee. If I had to hazard a guess, they've gone from 150Kish skier visits a year to 275Kish visits under the Meullers lease.

What have they done?

Added a HSQ. Added a nice new lodge. Put a huge focus on snowmaking, grooming and park options. Overall terrain acreage has increased minimally.

With Mittersill, Cannon has added 50% more lift serviced acreage to the area. They've improved snowmaking and grooming considerably over the past several years. They've upgraded their lodge.

You really don't think they can achieve an 18K annual increase in visits with what they've done when Sunapee has increased their visits by probably over 100K????

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I think there are a lot of ski areas that wish it were that easy to get additional snowmkaing water. Mt. Snow, Waterville Valley, Magic Mountain, and Mt. Sunpaee all wave.

Mt. Snow? You mean the same Mt. Snow that would have loved to do an interconnect with Haystack, but has now permanently shelved those plans? That one? The same Mt. Snow that, with some persistence, is on the cusp of achieving full approvals for their West Lake snowmaking project? Thanks for making my point.

Mt. Sunapee? You mean the same Mt. Sunapee that built a pipe to Lake Sunapee and now essentially has unlimited snowmaking water but are prevented from expanding onto the West Face by a variety of interests? That one? Thanks again for making my point.

Not sure how Magic is relevant - snowmaking is their #1 priority if they could afford it, but they can't.

Look up and down the East coast, and snowmaking improvements are MUCH more common and easier to execute than terrain expansions.

Sugarbush - Slide Brook dream is dead forver, but snowmaking improvements continue every year, including $1.5MM in new trunk line pipe this year.,

Stowe - Huge new investments in snowmaking with a new system at Spruce and a new lake. No new terrain in decades.

Killington - Successfully built Woodward Reservoir pipe but dreams of Parker's Gore are dead forever and Pico interconnect hasn't happened.

The list goes on and on - Gore, Okemo, Jay Peak, Loon, Whiteface, etc....

Snowmaking improvements can be easy or they can be tough, but they are almost universally easier than terrain expansions so long as the water is available. You're really not doing yourself any favors with this line of argument.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I don't think it's an accurate statement to say that Mittersill was a limited window. The land is all owned by the state now - they can do pretty much what they want and when they want.

Really? And politicians remain in office forever? Being State-owned means you are subject to the whims of the politicians and bureaucrats who happen to be in power at any given time. When they move one, the dynamics change. You think it's prudent to take that chance?

The implication is that the 18,000 skiers who haven't been skiing Cannon are now suddenly going to show up because of a double chairlift being installed on Mittersill. It's hard to explain where they will ski when it's doubtful that they'll even be there. Bottom line - if the Mittersill double operates at capacity without any slows or stops, it can support 400 people skiing 3 runs an hour.

Whether it's a double chairlift or some other form of conveyence is a lot less relevant than the headline of 50% more terrain being brought into the map. You know this, but you're being disingenuous.....again.

I'd be surpised (as would Boyne) if Sugarloaf sees 18,000 more annual skier visits based upon this year's expansion.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sugarloaf sees an increase of 18,000 skier visits 5 years from now when the Burnt Mtn expansion is fully built out. A terrain increase of that magnitude tends to grab people's attention and it doesn't even have to be the people coming to ski that area. They'll get so much free PR from ski/travel writers that it will more than pay for itself with people coming up to give the Loaf a try.

Saddleback's expansion is much more drastic - they've taken a 1960s ski area and brought it up to modern standards with a new base lodge, dramatic snowmaking expansion (including fan guns), new lift infrastructure, and new terrain, in only a few short years. It may not be sustainable, either, if the rumors leaked here and elsewhere are true.

Apples and elephants - Saddleback has invested not only in on-mountain improvements, but also a huge new lodge and several real estate complexes around the property. That's quite a lot of debt to service.

I'm not familiar with Gore, but just looking at trail maps, it seems like their expansion is a bit more than installing a double chairlift:

First of all, that map on the left is from 20 years ago. The period of their greatest increase in skier visits has coincided with a simplification of their lift system (removing the old gondi and installing the new one to Bear Peak) and an expansion to the Topridge area with a FG triple. The jury is still out on Burnt Ridge (it's been just one year with poor snow) and Noth Creek Ski Bowl opens this year. Nonetheless, Gore's decision to expand to Burnt Ridge and re-open the Ski Bowl was driven by the EXACT same logic as with Cannon. GM Mike Pratt has said as much in his interviews on the Harvey Road website - when you have a chance to increase your skiable terrain so drastically in light of the delicate nature of things in the ADK, you take it and worry about catching up with snowmaking later.

 

[skiberg]

Cannon may see an increase, but the problem is that they have to be able to steal skiers from other areas becuase there are not new skiers coming to the sport. That will require a sustained marketing campaigin which I have yet to see from Cannon. As for the comparison to Suanpee. Its interestign but a slightly different demographic. Sunapee attracts the casual skier who wants groomed intermediate slopes and a short drive from the major metropolitan areas. Its like comparing Okemo to Smuggs. In order to serioulsy attract more skiers Cannon needs to its perception of being a cold, icy skiers hill. I hope that never changes. By the way the snowmaking has improved over the past few years. They are getting better at laying it down much more quickly. Although I do not think snowmaking improves conditions it just makes the trail more sustainable over a more prolonged period.

 

[bobbutts]

Cannon may see an increase, but the problem is that they have to be able to steal skiers from other areas becuase there are not new skiers coming to the sport. That will require a sustained marketing campaigin which I have yet to see from Cannon. As for the comparison to Suanpee. Its interestign but a slightly different demographic. Sunapee attracts the casual skier who wants groomed intermediate slopes and a short drive from the major metropolitan areas. Its like comparing Okemo to Smuggs. In order to serioulsy attract more skiers Cannon needs to its perception of being a cold, icy skiers hill. I hope that never changes. By the way the snowmaking has improved over the past few years. They are getting better at laying it down much more quickly. Although I do not think snowmaking improves conditions it just makes the trail more sustainable over a more prolonged period.

I've spent a ton of midweek days at Sunapee, but no weekends.. The weekday demographic I've seen is not really like you describe. Tons of old folks and racers.

 

[EPB]

Really? And politicians remain in office forever? Being State-owned means you are subject to the whims of the politicians and bureaucrats who happen to be in power at any given time. When they move one, the dynamics change. You think it's prudent to take that chance?
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First of all, that map on the left is from 20 years ago. The period of their greatest increase in skier visits has coincided with a simplification of their lift system (removing the old gondi and installing the new one to Bear Peak) and an expansion to the Topridge area with a FG triple. The jury is still out on Burnt Ridge (it's been just one year with poor snow) and Noth Creek Ski Bowl opens this year. Nonetheless, Gore's decision to expand to Burnt Ridge and re-open the Ski Bowl was driven by the EXACT same logic as with Cannon. GM Mike Pratt has said as much in his interviews on the Harvey Road website - when you have a chance to increase your skiable terrain so drastically in light of the delicate nature of things in the ADK, you take it and worry about catching up with snowmaking later.

Great points. I was actually planning to say something to this effect before checking up on the rest of the thread. Government operations are a totally different animal when considering a terrain expansion- that seems pretty self evident. Better yet, you don't have to be an industry insider to know that when seats change hands, most plans are off until proven otherwise...,. To address your response to my inquiry more directly, yes Cannon can do what its wants when it wants with the land. The problem is, this still might be its only chance at seeing a new summit lift install in the foreseeable future due to politics.

Comparing those two maps was ridiculous. Why don't we compare other resorts between 1989 and now to see what types of improvements have been made. Some noteworthy improvements come to mind:
Attitash- Doubles in size due to Bear Peak expansion. Builds 3 new quads among other lift improvements.
Bretton Woods: Triples in size and builds 3 new high speed quads among other lift improvements.
Sugarbush: Undergoes Les Ottens $28ish million improvement spending spree. Then another under new ownership to fix Otten's configuring blunders.
Stowe: Completes a massive lift overhaul including 2 new gondolas and 2 new high speed quads.
Even Burke installed a new high speed quad since then.

For the sake of organization, I thought I'd make a list of contested points outstanding that make this crusade difficult to buy.
-Choosing to build the lift this year. They bid late, and lost money as a result, but did it have to be that way because of political reasons? The jury is still out.
-Exploring used lift options: the biggest issue here is that there's no tangible evidence that a used double option really exists. We only have an insider with clear political biases telling us it was a possibility.
-"Nickel and Diming" we had a contractor come on and remind us that once the contract was signed by the government, analyzing methods used by the dopp crew is irrelevant and rhetorical. If they thought they could have saved money by keeping the helicopter at home, they would have and pocketed the difference.
-Motivation: this clearly isn't the biggest potential budget blunder going on in the state of NH right now. Why the animosity?

The Glenn Beck example used earlier seems pertinent to why people aren't willing to buy your arguments. Sure, you know more about the industry than the overwhelming majority on this board, but that doesn't mean that you aren't fudging details, telling a small part of the story, and using loose/invalid comparisons to make your points. It seems unlikely that you've actually lied throughout this debate, but even the armchair quarterbacks of the world can pick up on how you've cherry-picked data to fit your points. You've been caught with your pants down trying to use numbers to explain why nobody is installing new lifts anymore (relative to good economic times and high growth periods in the 60's and 70's); you've also been burned by having no used lift data- any generalizations you've made about the frequency of used lift installs could have no relevance. Issues the typical AZer can find include, but are certainly not limited to the aforementioned points above. Surely others have taken issue with other logistical issues that I cannot remember at the moment, or haven't picked up on yet.

 

[deadheadskier]

Cannon may see an increase, but the problem is that they have to be able to steal skiers from other areas becuase there are not new skiers coming to the sport. That will require a sustained marketing campaigin which I have yet to see from Cannon. As for the comparison to Suanpee. Its interestign but a slightly different demographic. Sunapee attracts the casual skier who wants groomed intermediate slopes and a short drive from the major metropolitan areas. Its like comparing Okemo to Smuggs. In order to serioulsy attract more skiers Cannon needs to its perception of being a cold, icy skiers hill. I hope that never changes. By the way the snowmaking has improved over the past few years. They are getting better at laying it down much more quickly. Although I do not think snowmaking improves conditions it just makes the trail more sustainable over a more prolonged period.

Drive time from Boston

Sunapee: 1HR 57 MIN
Cannon: 2 HR 22 MIN
Okemo: 2 HR 56 MIN
Smuggs: 3 HR 45 MIN

It's only 25 minute further drive from metro Boston to Cannon than it is Sunapee.

I hear what you're saying regarding different demographics etc. I just don't view 18K skier visits to be all that much to improve. With how much Cannon has improved over the past few years, I think it would be relatively easy to grab those skiers from the other NH areas, especially the N. Conway areas that are a pain in the ass to get to.

 

[threecy]

Let's look at Sunapee. If I had to hazard a guess, they've gone from 150Kish skier visits a year to 275Kish visits under the Meullers lease.

Added a HSQ. Added a nice new lodge. Put a huge focus on snowmaking, grooming and park options. Overall terrain acreage has increased minimally.

With Mittersill, Cannon has added 50% more lift serviced acreage to the area. They've improved snowmaking and grooming considerably over the past several years. They've upgraded their lodge

You really don't think they can achieve an 18K annual increase in visits with what they've done when Sunapee has increased their visits by probably over 100K????

With Mittersill, they're installing a chairlift that can give 400 people 3 runs an hour if every chair is full and the lift never stops. The HSQ, expanded lodge, park, and snowmaking have little to nothing to do with the Mittersill area. The HSQ has been in place for some years now, as have many of the other upgrades. I think it's a long shot to see this 18K in 5 years number created in the forums.

Mt. Snow? You mean the same Mt. Snow that would have loved to do an interconnect with Haystack, but has now permanently shelved those plans? That one? The same Mt. Snow that, with some persistence, is on the cusp of achieving full approvals for their West Lake snowmaking project? Thanks for making my point.

Nope, not the same Mt. Snow. Has Peak ever said they're interested in expanding to Haystack? The folks who wanted to connect to Haystack, now a closed ski area, went bankrupt.

West Lake has been on the "cusp" for years.

Mt. Sunapee? You mean the same Mt. Sunapee that built a pipe to Lake Sunapee and now essentially has unlimited snowmaking water but are prevented from expanding onto the West Face by a variety of interests? That one? Thanks again for making my point.

Mt. Sunapee is being denied expansion rights by the same guy who approved the Mittersill project and was there at groundbreaking.

Not sure how Magic is relevant - snowmaking is their #1 priority if they could afford it, but they can't.

Magic expanded to a double chairlift served area. Then went bankrupt. Meanwhile, they still find themselves struggling to get the water they need for snowmaking.

Look up and down the East coast, and snowmaking improvements are MUCH more common and easier to execute than terrain expansions.

Snowmaking improvements can be easy or they can be tough, but they are almost universally easier than terrain expansions so long as the water is available.

You're clearly an special industry expert if you say this stuff is easier to execute. Your phone will be ringing off the hook with ski areas who have been struggling to get rights to improve their water supplies and intakes.

You've been caught with your pants down trying to use numbers to explain why nobody is installing new lifts anymore (relative to good economic times and high growth periods in the 60's and 70's)

That's exactly the point - the new lift market essentially crashed. I'm not sure why you're contradicting yourself in that statement - the new lift install market today is a shadow of itself and there are very few metrics to show otherwise. But, as usual, I provided some facts and they were quickly dismissed, thus the apparent prevailing wisdom on these forums that the new lift install market is doing quite well in New England.

you've also been burned by having no used lift data- any generalizations you've made about the frequency of used lift installs could have no relevance.

Who says I have no used lift data? The question is, why would I go through the time and effort of building a list of used lift installs for some folks sitting behind their computer screens who will instantly dismiss it?


Meanwhile, through all of this "debating," it seems like very few people have been visiting Mittersill.

Towers for the new base terminal

Remains of the old Mittersill double

Remains of the old Mittersill double

Concrete poured, looking up the line

 

[deadheadskier]

With Mittersill, they're installing a chairlift that can give 400 people 3 runs an hour if every chair is full and the lift never stops. The HSQ, expanded lodge, park, and snowmaking have little to nothing to do with the Mittersill area. The HSQ has been in place for some years now, as have many of the other upgrades. I think it's a long shot to see this 18K in 5 years number created in the forums.

Reading comprehension is fundamental. The bolded items were the improvements at Sunapee that grew their business. Of course it has nothing to do with Cannon/Mittersill.

My argument is very simple. Sunapee did this and increased their visits by 100K. Cannon did that and should be able to increase their visits by 18K.

You seriously don't think that a 50% increase in lift serviced skiable terrain is 18% as significant as the improvements Sunapee has done?

18K skier visits. That's roughly a thousand skiers per week for the season. It's really not that much.

Of course I'm sure if a Private Company leased and did the same expansion you'd say, "What heroes. This is fantastic. 100K more skiers a year will head to Cannon. And my gosh, the side benefit is the glorious fact that the lease saves each NH resident fifty cents"

 

[threecy]

With Mittersill, they're installing a chairlift that can give 400 people 3 runs an hour if every chair is full and the lift never stops. The HSQ, expanded lodge, park, and snowmaking have little to nothing to do with the Mittersill area. The HSQ has been in place for some years now, as have many of the other upgrades. I think it's a long shot to see this 18K in 5 years number created in the forums.

Reading comprehension is fundamental. The bolded items were the improvements at Sunapee that grew their business. Of course it has nothing to do with Cannon/Mittersill.

Reading comprehension is fundamental. Cannon has done all of those things during the same time period as Sunapee (funded by Sunapee and NH taxpayers).

My argument is very simple. Sunapee did this and increased their visits by 100K. Cannon did that and should be able to increase their visits by 18K.

Cannon did *that* and didn't increase their skier visits by 100K.