Mittersill Photos (September 2010)

[EPB]

If we went through life disregarding government expenditures that only amount to $2 (your calculation, not mine) to our pockets, we'd end up perhaps in worst fiscal shape than we are already in. The state is projecting hundreds of millions of dollars in deficit next fiscal year - every million counts. The overall Mittersill project, beside the lift, is running $3-$4 million this fiscal year..

If you were really concerned with the NH government's expenditures, you wouldn't have the time to consider the taxation/budget affect from not nickel and dime-ing the Mittersil chairlift. I can think of plenty uses of funds in the Seacoast that were more expensive than the entire Mittersil project (not just the marginal effect of not being as cheap as you deem possible). I'm not going to get into specifics, because this forum is not about politics, and I want to respect that. The point is- there are plenty of bigger budget projects completed within the last 1-2 years that are more worth your whining. I'm pretty convinced you know this isn't remotely close to the biggest budget blunder in recent past, but you've got the knowledge to show that the state could have saved $.03 per person here, or .$07 there IF your suggested alternatives would even work... The other alternative is that you're too dense to figure it out.

By the way, I really do like your newenglandskihistory page. You have the potential to make valuable contributions to this, and other boards that you're on. All too often, however, you decide to play "arm chair tough guy" to use your expression, behind your computer. It's really foolish, and as far as I can tell, only one contributor to this forum buys a word of your opinions on the Mittersill project. You might not care because you're conducting yourself in this manner anonymously via internet, but you really make yourself look bad.

 

[Newpylong]

I used to work in an industry that had a similar following of loyal hobbyists, complete with websites, message boards, etc. When I saw what outsiders posted/said I often responded with haste, sometimes belittling them.

I can relate his attitude to what I went through dealing with that. It got to a point where I got called out pretty bad on a couple things. I took a step back and realized I was out of line in my delivery and assumptions.

I think Threecy has very much to offer (I have learned a lot), but the delivery and undertones are "know it all" and obnoxious at time.

If you were really concerned with the NH government's expenditures, you wouldn't have the time to consider the taxation/budget affect from not nickel and dime-ing the Mittersil chairlift. I can think of plenty uses of funds in the Seacoast that were more expensive than the entire Mittersil project (not just the marginal effect of not being as cheap as you deem possible). I'm not going to get into specifics, because this forum is not about politics, and I want to respect that. The point is- there are plenty of bigger budget projects completed within the last 1-2 years that are more worth your whining. I'm pretty convinced you know this isn't remotely close to the biggest budget blunder in recent past, but you've got the knowledge to show that the state could have saved $.03 per person here, or .$07 there IF your suggested alternatives would even work... The other alternative is that you're too dense to figure it out.

By the way, I really do like your newenglandskihistory page. You have the potential to make valuable contributions to this, and other boards that you're on. All too often, however, you decide to play "arm chair tough guy" to use your expression, behind your computer. It's really foolish, and as far as I can tell, only one contributor to this forum buys a word of your opinions on the Mittersill project. You might not care because you're conducting yourself in this manner anonymously via internet, but you really make yourself look bad.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

I'm not sure if I ever saw your original question ("still?"), but if you look at the number of OEM installs, as well as OEMs in general (only 2 left), you'll see that very few New England areas have been investing in brand new lifts over the past decade.

Without even taking a second to research it, the list includes:

Sunday River
Killington
Sugarbush
Stowe
Jay Peak
Loon
Bretton Woods
Saddleback
Okemo
Stratton
Middlebury Snow Bowl (not 100% sure on that one)
Bolton Valley
Burke Mountain
Ascutney
Sunapee
Ragged
Mad River Glen

I guess you and I have a wildly different definition of what constitutes "very few".

It's worth noting that this lift includes 11 of the 15 New England resorts with vertical drops of over 2000'. Cannon is in very good company. But please do feel free keep comparing it to local feeder hills.

 

[thetrailboss]

Without even taking a second to research it, the list includes:

Middlebury Snow Bowl (not 100% sure on that one)

This was a completely new lift.

Burke Mountain

Poma did a retrofit of an existing double into a HSQ.

 

[threecy]

Without even taking a second to research it, the list includes:
...
I guess you and I have a wildly different definition of what constitutes "very few".

New Chairlift/Gondola/Tramway Installations at New England ski areas (four year periods, from the NA Lift Installation Surveys):

1966: 18
1967: 9
1968: 12
1969: 20
Late 60's 4 year mean: 14.75 lifts per year

1976: 6
1977: 6
1978: 14
1979: 5
Late 70's 4 year mean: 7.75 lifts per year

1986: 17
1987: 23
1988: 14
1989: 3
Late 80's 4 year mean: 14.25 lifts per year

1996: 5
1997: 9
1998: 3
1999: 6
Late 90's 4 year mean: 5.75 lifts per year

2006: 1
2007: 3 (includes MRG rebuild)
2008: 3
2009: 2
Late 00's 4 year mean: 2.25 lifts per year

 

[JPTracker]

Just curious. How many used lifts purchased on the secondary market have been install recently?

 

[threecy]

Just curious. How many used lifts purchased on the secondary market have been install recently?

I'm not aware of a data source on used lift installs.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Without even taking a second to research it, the list includes:

Sunday River
Killington
Sugarbush
Stowe
Jay Peak
Loon
Bretton Woods
Saddleback
Okemo
Stratton
Middlebury Snow Bowl (not 100% sure on that one)
Bolton Valley
Burke Mountain
Ascutney
Sunapee
Ragged
Mad River Glen

I guess you and I have a wildly different definition of what constitutes "very few".

It's worth noting that this lift includes 11 of the 15 New England resorts with vertical drops of over 2000'. Cannon is in very good company. But please do feel free keep comparing it to local feeder hills.

New Chairlift/Gondola/Tramway Installations at New England ski areas (four year periods, from the NA Lift Installation Surveys):

1966: 18
1967: 9
1968: 12
1969: 20
Late 60's 4 year mean: 14.75 lifts per year

1976: 6
1977: 6
1978: 14
1979: 5
Late 70's 4 year mean: 7.75 lifts per year

1986: 17
1987: 23
1988: 14
1989: 3
Late 80's 4 year mean: 14.25 lifts per year

1996: 5
1997: 9
1998: 3
1999: 6
Late 90's 4 year mean: 5.75 lifts per year

2006: 1
2007: 3 (includes MRG rebuild)
2008: 3
2009: 2
Late 00's 4 year mean: 2.25 lifts per year

This is what we call in the business misdirection or deflection.

You made a claim. It was pretty clearly refuted, and then you respond with some sort of cherry-picked statistical analysis going back to the golden age of ski area expansions? How exactly is that relevant? If by "very few" you mean to compare to an era when skier visits were growing at double digit rates and environmental limitations on ski area expansions were non-existent, then I guess sure. By that logic, my Audi Allroad is a tiny economy car b/c it's dramatically smaller than the hulking family and luxury cars that prevailed in the 60s and 70s. I suppose that's the best you can do when you've had your pants pulled down by an industry outsider who gave you the names of 18 ski areas that installed new lifts in this decade alone.

Also, why use just the last four years when your original statement referred to the entire decade? Surely it's just coincidence that half of that most recent 4 year period falls within the deepest economic recession and housing crash for second homes that we've seen in our lifetimes?

 

[threecy]

This is what we call in the business misdirection or deflection.

You made a claim. It was pretty clearly refuted, and then you respond with some sort of cherry-picked statistical analysis going back to the golden age of ski area expansions? How exactly is that relevant? If by "very few" you mean to compare to an era when skier visits were growing at double digit rates and environmental limitations on ski area expansions were non-existent, then I guess sure. By that logic, my Audi Allroad is a tiny economy car b/c it's dramatically smaller than the hulking family and luxury cars that prevailed in the 60s and 70s. I suppose that's the best you can do when you've had your pants pulled down by an industry outsider who gave you the names of 18 ski areas that installed new lifts in this decade alone.

Also, why use just the last four years when your original statement referred to the entire decade? Surely it's just coincidence that half of that most recent 4 year period falls within the deepest economic recession and housing crash for second homes that we've seen in our lifetimes?

Are you serious? I can't tell if you're joking...

In regard to using 4 year periods vs. 10 year periods, you're welcome to go back and do 10 year comparisons - the data's all there for the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

 

[bobbutts]

If you were really concerned with the NH government's expenditures, you wouldn't have the time to consider the taxation/budget affect from not nickel and dime-ing the Mittersil chairlift. I can think of plenty uses of funds in the Seacoast that were more expensive than the entire Mittersil project (not just the marginal effect of not being as cheap as you deem possible). I'm not going to get into specifics, because this forum is not about politics, and I want to respect that. The point is- there are plenty of bigger budget projects completed within the last 1-2 years that are more worth your whining. I'm pretty convinced you know this isn't remotely close to the biggest budget blunder in recent past, but you've got the knowledge to show that the state could have saved $.03 per person here, or .$07 there IF your suggested alternatives would even work... The other alternative is that you're too dense to figure it out.

By the way, I really do like your newenglandskihistory page. You have the potential to make valuable contributions to this, and other boards that you're on. All too often, however, you decide to play "arm chair tough guy" to use your expression, behind your computer. It's really foolish, and as far as I can tell, only one contributor to this forum buys a word of your opinions on the Mittersill project. You might not care because you're conducting yourself in this manner anonymously via internet, but you really make yourself look bad.

lol, I'm the only one who buys a word I guess..

I actually am strongly in favor of the project because I selfishly want the state to invest as much as possible in our skiing product. I don't really care what the cost or financial returns is, I love skiing infrastructure and want it even if we spend 10x more than we need to.

I'm also interested in the nuts and bolts.. how did they handle this project? could the money have been better spent? What do industry insiders think about it?

I guess I've now spent whatever minimal cred I had it this forum by disagreeing with everyone here.. Without knowledge and differing opinions it's not much of a forum anyway so it's worth it.

 

[threecy]

What do industry insiders think about it?

I've talked to some following this who want nothing to do with this due to the reaction.

 

[Tin Woodsman]

In regard to using 4 year periods vs. 10 year periods, you're welcome to go back and do 10 year comparisons - the data's all there for the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Yes it is, and it still does nothing to buttress your point. Seriously - you stated that very few ski areas have installed new lifts in the last decade. Without needing any research, I counted 18 of them, the vast majority of which are the larger destination resorts that represent Cannon's primary competition. By all means, please do keep making specious comparisons to Berkshire East and don't forget the references to the army of industry insiders who would surely be joining in this discussion but for the unpleasantness of the debate. What a joke.

 

[riverc0il]

I'm not aware of a data source on used lift installs.

Whoa, hold on just a second there. You are arguing from the perspective that used lifts are typically installed more frequently than new lifts. You have the stats on the new lifts. But you don't have the stats on the used lifts? How can you make the argument without the data to back it up? I know you worked in the biz for a while but your new lift stats don't prove anything unless they are compared to used lift stats...

 

[riverc0il]

Because I'm participating in a thread about one of the biggest happenings in the New Hampshire ski industry right now (there may be big news released soon that may displace this in the forefront for a bit, though).

That would have to be some pretty big news, indeed! What could be bigger than the biggest lift service expansion in the entire northeast?

Note: Loaf is not a lift serviced expansion but that is also big news.

 

[AdironRider]

Wow another ten pages on Mitt, and were back to where we were on page 3 of the first.

I am stoked for lift served Mitt again. Cost be damned. Threecy can continue to bitch about it and break out cherry picked stats but it doesnt change the fact that its going to be cool.

Isnt that what matters? The skiing is going to be sweet, mostly ungroomed, natural conditions. Seems like everyone else gets this but Threecy. His loss is my gain.

 

[thetrailboss]

.

I am stoked for lift served Mitt again.

Isnt that what matters? The skiing is going to be sweet, mostly ungroomed, natural conditions.

+1

 

[deadheadskier]

Wow another ten pages on Mitt, and were back to where we were on page 3 of the first.

I am stoked for lift served Mitt again. Cost be damned. Threecy can continue to bitch about it and break out cherry picked stats but it doesnt change the fact that its going to be cool.

Isnt that what matters? The skiing is going to be sweet, mostly ungroomed, natural conditions. Seems like everyone else gets this but Threecy. His loss is my gain.

What he is arguing has nothing to do with skiing and everything to do with politics.

Skiing is my escape from the politics of the real world. I'm with you. I could care less how much this project costs. I'm blown away that he is making that big of a deal out of this. I've pointed out other current recreation projects, specifically Hampton Beach that are costing tax payers five fold as much. I've pointed out state parks that lose money every single year. I've pointed out that NH financially manages their State Park System better than any other state in the nation. He shrugs it all off. Call it the 'train wreck' syndrome for why I keep participating in such nonsense.

The day I let politics upset me so much regarding the biggest passion in my life is the day I give up skiing. I just don't get it.

 

[witch hobble]

(there may be big news released soon that may displace this in the forefront for a bit, though).

I knew it! Vail Resorts is acquiring Tenney through a foreclosure auction, aren't they?:beer:

 

[Tin Woodsman]

Wow another ten pages on Mitt, and were back to where we were on page 3 of the first.

I am stoked for lift served Mitt again. Cost be damned. Threecy can continue to bitch about it and break out cherry picked stats but it doesnt change the fact that its going to be cool.

Isnt that what matters? The skiing is going to be sweet, mostly ungroomed, natural conditions. Seems like everyone else gets this but Threecy. His loss is my gain.

Well threecy did do something incredible - he got me and AdironRider to agree on something.

 

[bigbob]

Any more Mittersill photos? After all that is what this thread is titled.

Here is a few, sorry about the large size...

Not ski related, but had to "Brake for Moose" while commuting thru the notch, pic is a little blurry, but he was pretty big!! He was on my side of the highway and almost slipped and fell as he jumped over the gaurd rail.